doping in hockey

[the sceptic]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/pascal-dupuis-taken-to-hospital-as-blood-clot-precaution-015445517.html

Dupuis was found to have a blood clot in his lung last November and missed the remainder of the NHL regular season with the issue. He needed six months of treatment with blood thinners. It was the second instance when Dupuis was found to have a blood clot.

wtf.. seems healthy

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2015/02/27/nhl-players-getting-an-education-about-blood-clots/24141055/

The doctor told Tomas Fleischmann he might never play hockey again. Blood clots that began in his leg had moved to his lungs and threatened not only his career but his life.

Goaltender Tomas Vokoun's left leg was almost 4 inches bigger than his right because of a clot. Surgery was required to drain the blood and he never played another NHL game.

this seems like it could potentially be the most dangerous sport in the world, after football I guess.

 

[the delgados]

Surely they will learn.
Hockey is a third world equivalent to doping in sports. There is no doubt they do it, but most participants are probably playing catch-up.
Some team needs to hire orange juice Ferrari asap.

 

[del1962]

football is not a dangerous sport

 

[Irondan]

Re:

football is not a dangerous sport

Tell that to the parents of this high school football player that died a few weeks ago here in Washington State.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...football-player-dies_5612ddb5e4b022a4ce5f1562

Hockey is a dangerous sport too, that's full of players that have been doping since juniors.

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

football is not a dangerous sport

Tell that to the parents of this high school football player that died a few weeks ago here in Washington State.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...football-player-dies_5612ddb5e4b022a4ce5f1562

Hockey is a dangerous sport too, that's full of players that have been doping since juniors.

That is not football, just some game for padded men

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Surely they will learn.
Hockey is a third world equivalent to doping in sports. There is no doubt they do it, but most participants are probably playing catch-up.
Some team needs to hire orange juice Ferrari asap.

what about the golfer who likes his cocaine who is shacked up with Wayne Gretzky's daughter, i think he got a coke band for 6 months in either 2014 or 2013 from the PGA.

I dont play golf. Its barely even a sport. Its a background for Bill Murray to do comedy.

Tiger gave a whole new interpretation to the gallery encouraging him to get in the hole.

i mean, they call their fans a gallery. 'nuff said

 

[the delgados]

I believe you're referring to Dustin Johnson, the man who bedded and wedded the great one's daughter.
Getting back to hockey, doping in hockey is similar to football in that insiders know what's going on, but it's never talked about.
I've heard many stories of junior players taking street-level drugs to stay awake, but I can't recall a big-time OJ Ferrari-style bust.
Players unions are the way to go.

 

[nayr497]

I personally don't think doping in hockey is widespread. Sure, I bet some of the pure enforcers/fighters are on HGH and steroids. But, I don't think it's prevalent. For me, it couldn't be more different than cycling. Drugs are not going to turn a so-so guy into a quality NHL player, the way dope can make a donkey a pretty good cyclist.

That said, having played high-level sports at a uni. with a very highly ranked men's ice hockey team of Canadians and Americans and a few Euros...hockey players DO like their party drugs.

 

[the sceptic]

Doping doesn't work in hockey? These guys need to be both extremely strong and also have endurance to be able to go out there shift after shift. Not to mention they play games every other day. Also there is virtually no testing. Do the math.

As an aside, wasn't the kid who died of a heartattack in Russian hockey found to have done transfusions?

 

[nayr497]

If that comment was in response to mine, I do think it could help your endurance. I do think it could help strength. But skating skills, puck handling, and hand eye coordination are all crucial. Endurance and pure strength aren't quite as important.

I'm sure drugs could help some guys. I just don't think it's as widespread in say the NHL as I think doping is in the NFL. And "extremely strong" is relative. They have to skate too much for them to get too heavy. Most are in the 6'0" and 185-ish range. Some bigger, some smaller. Definitely a high strength to mass ratio, but nothing like the pure power of American football players.

I bet alcohol and street drug use is higher in the NHL than PEDs. But, that's just how I see it.

I just don't think dope can help with the most important skills - skating ability, hand-eye coordination, seeing the ice, creativity, decision-making skills. In a league like the NFL...pure power is very important. Also, taking shifts means the endurance aspect isn't as crucial as top-flight soccer, where they run for 45 minutes at a time.

 

[Buffalo]

NHL players are bigger than that.

The dope wouldn't help the skills aspect? Well it would certainly allow them to be faster and maybe all that practicing they do would help. But to play in the NHL or minor leagues you would already have a high skill level. PEDs would just make you bigger and faster. Of course they are doping.

 

[Bosco Rivera]

Re:

As an aside, wasn't the kid who died of a heartattack in Russian hockey found to have done transfusions?

I believe you are referring to former NY Rangers prospect Alexei Cherapanov. Details of his case are still fuzzy, it seems, but it all really make you go hmmm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Cherepanov

 

[Random Direction]

Yes, dope would help a prospect who is on the cut line be a better player than another on the cut line who doesn't dope. Unless they are canadians like me who, of course, are above le dopage, oui?

That said, the biggest issue with hockey is the cultural one around concussions, alcohol and party drugs - sometimes together, sometimes not.

 

[OneRaceWonder]

Re:

I just don't think dope can help with the most important skills - skating ability, hand-eye coordination, seeing the ice, creativity, decision-making skills. In a league like the NFL...pure power is very important. Also, taking shifts means the endurance aspect isn't as crucial as top-flight soccer, where they run for 45 minutes at a time.

Wow. Do people really "think" this? I mean, is the old "Messis game is based on skills, not physical attributes, ergo he does not dope" argument, still alive? I´m shocked by how naive people are...at the same time, not that shocked.

And "endurance aspect isn't as crucial as top-flight soccer"? Smh.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Based on some interviews with former players who will not identify themselves (omerta) the major PED in the NHL is steroids. Most hockey players are weight room junkies and this is the logical place where steroid use is discussed and transacted.

Most hockey players are not sophisticated enough to use EPO on their own and they are constantly on the road for away games during the season so blood doping is practically impossible, but then again who knows

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

it couldn't be more different than cycling.

OK. But then you go on to say...

They have to skate too much for them to get too heavy.

That's sounds exactly like cycling. What other athletes are as concerned about their weight as cyclists? You can't use "getting too heavy" as a reason some athletes might not dope. FFS, this is ridiculous. Testosterone and HGH have a long and glorious history in cycling. Do you honestly thing that hockey players wouldn't use these same drugs because of fears of getting too big or too heavy?

Just imagine the conversation. "Dude, put that stuff away! What are trying to do, win the Tour de France or something?! How will you be able skate around the rink if you turn into a hulking mass like Michael Rasmussen?"

I just don't think dope can help with the most important skills - skating ability, hand-eye coordination, seeing the ice, creativity, decision-making skills.

Let's try that from a different angle.
If we rephrase that as "running ability, hand-eye coordinate, seeing the ball, creativity, decision-making skills" what doped-up sport comes to mind?

Do you honestly think that a non-contact sport such as baseball (or basketball) could be rife with doping, but that an incredibly contact-driven sport such as hockey, which is also highly skill driven, would somehow find the same cocktail of drugs to be ineffective?

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Here's a succinct description of a good hockey player from Brian Propp, a 1000+ point scorer in the NHL. Would dope help a prospect make the cut?

It’s not always size that will make you a better hockey player. It’s knowing the game, it’s outsmarting your opponents, it’s having the drive and intensity to be able to accomplish what you want.

If the question is, "Would PEDs enhance drive and intensity?"

Then the resounding answer is, Yes.

How this conversation can be taking place in 2015 is beyond me.

Of course skills are important. They all have skills or they'd never be putting on the uniform. Mark McGwire use to make that argument that if steroids alone were the answer, then every other guy at Gold's Gym would be hitting home runs. He's right of course. But no one had ever suggested as much. It's an absurd position to take.

Superiors skills and sport-specific intelligence will only be enough for the rarest-of-the-rare of greats to overcome any lack of physical abilities they may have. For the rest, when pitted against comparably skilled teammates and opponents, it mostly comes down to having the physical ability to withstand the punishment of training, travel and competition. The better you can handle that, the better you perform.

PEDs have an excellent track record of assisting in those goals.
(See what I did there?)

 

[Buffalo]

Not to mention the minimum salary is $550k, and there was
A 125 way tie for the lowest paid NHL player. We have cyclists doping for a chance at a pay day embarrassingly lower than this.

 

[nayr497]

Oh, look. The Blackhawks backliners average 6'1". A whopping INCH taller than I tossed out there.

Stamkos, one of the best pure scorers in the league. 6', 190".

Norris Trophy winner Erik Karlsson, 6' 180 pounds.

Not going to bother arguing more, but it severely pisses me off how many of you think you are so well informed and others are "naive." What was that about a team of 6' 180 pounders not being able to win the Cup?

 

[nayr497]

Ha...wouldn't make the playoffs. You are RIGHT! An NHL team of 6' 185 pounders wouldn't make the playoffs. They'd win the Cup. A few times. In a few seasons.

Again, it's nice to prove some of you, who know everything, are completely wrong.

There is doping in all sports where $ is involved. I don't think it approaches anything near the majority in the NHL though. Can't prove this, but I sure as heck know I'm spot on with my height/weight guesstimate, now that I did the math to make at least two of you look like "naive" d-bags.

 

[the delgados]

@nayr497.
Like you said, this is a forum where people express opinions; no need to get pissed off when someone says "of course they dope." It's just a random opinion spouted on a cycling message board that very few people in the world are going to read.
Relax, buddy.
Not sure how weight and height is evidence that a player isn't taking some form of PED, but I get your point about the finer aspects of the game. I played provincial junior A hockey back in the day, and I agree with your general assessment that the bruisers were more likely to be juicing. I'm just under 6' and at the time weighed 155 pounds, and I remember walking into the dressing room during try-outs and being terrified when I saw some guys across from me who looked like friggin body builders. But that was when steroids were the main course.

 

[nayr497]

It just bugs me when people think they know everything. And call anyone with a different opinion "naive." I try to play nice and enjoy the forum, but I don't like being accused of being "naive" when I am pretty familiar with elite hockey players.

I was simply saying that unlike the NFL, where sheer size is very important, in hockey, speed, finesse and vision are hugely important. Okay, uppers can help with some of this, but I just don't think the majority of elite hockey players are doping. Not that some don't. I just don't think we're talking 90s peloton.

Exactly! You aren't that big and were a great player. Some things we'll never know and some are an opinion, but being told I was crazy with my height/weight guess and Oh, Boy! I'm spot on, well, that bugs me. I think some sports have a serious doping culture going on, but with hockey, I have always seen much more of a party drug culture than anything.

 

[the delgados]

Fair enough.
For what it's worth, I think Mario Lemieux (sp?) was the greatest of all time. I would never rule out anyone taking PED's, but I'm pretty sure he was a smoker who never gave consideration to keeping fit.
But he had an amazing ability to make the game seem simple and easy. It's like he knew what was going to happen long before everyone else and had time to have a smoke before scoring another goal.
Gretzky was similar, but unlike ML, he had muscle to back him up. Opponents knew they'd be knocked unconscious if they dared hit him, so I think he had a bit more leeway.

Edited to add that I appreciate the compliment, but I wasn't a great player. Any success I had was due to trying to move around like a water bug in order to avoid getting hit by someone twice my size. In retrospect, it wasn't much fun.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re:

Fair enough.
For what it's worth, I think Mario Lemieux (sp?) was the greatest of all time. I would never rule out anyone taking PED's, but I'm pretty sure he was a smoker who never gave consideration to keeping fit.
But he had an amazing ability to make the game seem simple and easy. It's like he knew what was going to happen long before everyone else and had time to have a smoke before scoring another goal.
Gretzky was similar, but unlike ML, he had muscle to back him up. Opponents knew they'd be knocked unconscious if they dared hit him, so I think he had a bit more leeway.

Edited to add that I appreciate the compliment, but I wasn't a great player. Any success I had was due to trying to move around like a water bug in order to avoid getting hit by someone twice my size. In retrospect, it wasn't much fun.

To throw some wood on the debate about hockey players doping, having played hockey, having hung around hockey players and having had the benefit of knowing several NHLers personally, my read is that the really good players like Lemieux, Gretzky (who by the way had no muscle), Howe, Orr, Crosby, Neidemeyer, Toews really didn't or don't need to dope.

It is the marginal players who would benefit from EPO to make a team, stay in the league, or finish off a career. This is just like it is in all the other major North American sports (football, baseball and basketball). If an older hockey player needed the salary of an NHL player for personal financial reasons, I suspect he would dope in a minute. The older fading guys are lot more savvy than the young guns when it comes to survival.

Hockey players generally are not the most sophisticated (although of all the big sports they are the nicest and in some instances very naive). So in order to dope I can see them needing professional help. There is plenty of that around these days and there are lots of doctors, trainers, "fitness types" and others who would work with a player for a few extra ducats! Doping requires attention to detail but it is not rocket science!

The NHL thinks it is squeaky clean, but I doubt it! My hunch is 20% dope.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

Fair enough.
For what it's worth, I think Mario Lemieux (sp?) was the greatest of all time. I would never rule out anyone taking PED's, but I'm pretty sure he was a smoker who never gave consideration to keeping fit.
But he had an amazing ability to make the game seem simple and easy. It's like he knew what was going to happen long before everyone else and had time to have a smoke before scoring another goal.
Gretzky was similar, but unlike ML, he had muscle to back him up. Opponents knew they'd be knocked unconscious if they dared hit him, so I think he had a bit more leeway.

Edited to add that I appreciate the compliment, but I wasn't a great player. Any success I had was due to trying to move around like a water bug in order to avoid getting hit by someone twice my size. In retrospect, it wasn't much fun.

To throw some wood on the debate about hockey players doping, having played hockey, having hung around hockey players and having had the benefit of knowing several NHLers personally, my read is that the really good players like Lemieux, Gretzky (who by the way had no muscle), Howe, Orr, Crosby, Neidemeyer, Toews really didn't or don't need to dope.

It is the marginal players who would benefit from EPO to make a team, stay in the league, or finish off a career. This is just like it is in all the other major North American sports (football, baseball and basketball). If an older hockey player needed the salary of an NHL player for personal financial reasons, I suspect he would dope in a minute. The older fading guys are lot more savvy than the young guns when it comes to survival.

Hockey players generally are not the most sophisticated (although of all the big sports they are the nicest and in some instances very naive). So in order to dope I can see them needing professional help. There is plenty of that around these days and there are lots of doctors, trainers, "fitness types" and others who would work with a player for a few extra ducats! Doping requires attention to detail but it is not rocket science!

The NHL thinks it is squeaky clean, but I doubt it! My hunch is 20% dope.

I don't get why people, when they talk about doping in any sport, only mention EPO. EPO is certainly not the only drug that is used out there. Plus you are defending professional sports in NA, which is fine, but realize that that there is massive amounts of $$$ going around. Corruption surrounds all professional, especially team sports. No doubt about it.