Doping in other sports?

[D-Queued]

...

Cycling played a key role, along with sports like weightlifting, in establishing the doping infrastructure, but cycling is ultimately small potatoes. ...

Cycling is small potatoes in terms of revenues. But, when it comes to doping, cycling is big time.

There are only a few sports where doping is arguably as de rigeur and culturally/peer pressure organized and reinforced as cycling.

In some cases, there is the classic patient zero situation:

Weightlifting ... check
Body building ... see weight lifting
US Pro Football ... see weight lifting & body building
Canadian Pro Football ... cleaning up since it actually has a testing policy now, but where the NFL used to send its recidivist doping cast-offs like Ricky Williams
Professional Wrestling ... another entertainment sport full of cast-offs from all of the above

Only Body Building - so far - has with and w/out doping classifications.

Cycling does set the standard for other sports - especially endurance sports - like triathlon to follow in its footsteps.

Dave.

 

[TubularBills]

Cycling is small potatoes in terms of revenues. But, when it comes to doping, cycling is big time.

There are only a few sports where doping is arguably as de rigeur and culturally/peer pressure organized and reinforced as cycling.

In some cases, there is the classic patient zero situation:

Weightlifting ... check
Body building ... see weight lifting
US Pro Football ... see weight lifting & body building
Canadian Pro Football ... cleaning up since it actually has a testing policy now, but where the NFL used to send its recidivist doping cast-offs like Ricky Williams
Professional Wrestling ... another entertainment sport full of cast-offs from all of the above

Only Body Building - so far - has with and w/out doping classifications.

Cycling does set the standard for other sports - especially endurance sports - like triathlon to follow in its footsteps.

Dave.

+1

and another ouch.

 

[The Hitch]

Cycling is small potatoes in terms of revenues. But, when it comes to doping, cycling is big time.

There are only a few sports where doping is arguably as de rigeur and culturally/peer pressure organized and reinforced as cycling.

In some cases, there is the classic patient zero situation:

Weightlifting ... check
Body building ... see weight lifting
US Pro Football ... see weight lifting & body building
Canadian Pro Football ... cleaning up since it actually has a testing policy now, but where the NFL used to send its recidivist doping cast-offs like Ricky Williams
Professional Wrestling ... another entertainment sport full of cast-offs from all of the above

Only Body Building - so far - has with and w/out doping classifications.

Cycling does set the standard for other sports - especially endurance sports - like triathlon to follow in its footsteps.

Dave.

What makes you so sure that cycling is the doping big time? Because weve had more tests? Pleeeasse. I think we all know why other sports dont have as many scandals.

What makes you so sure its only endurance and sports?

We know for example that epo, our drug so to speak, associated with endurance only, is actually used very heavily in sprinting. Yes, 10 second 100 m sprinting. Kelli White pointed out all the dates she was taking it along with various other drugs.

Now if 100m sprinters are taking it, why wouldnt soccer, tennis, rugby players etc take it. Endurance is way more important in these sports and recovery is even more important.

And if cycling is the worst, why were there footballers and tennis players on Fuentes's list?

You should also note that if we are creating lists based on people caught alone, then 100m sprinting should definately be on the list, seeing as almost every guy to win a gold or break a record over the last 20 years has been caught. Even Carl Luis it turns out was doping.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Cycling is small potatoes in terms of revenues. But, when it comes to doping, cycling is big time.

You are confusing the sport being an early adopter and experimenter with the issue of where those techniques end up being used. Which is everywhere where speed, endurance, strength or recovery matters. The early adopter sports, like cycling or weightlifting are not hermetically sealed.

Take baseball for instance. Are we really going to say that steroid usage was something other than the norm? That they just caught the "few bad apples"? Even though they have a woeful testing policy. Shouldn't that very term be enough to make a cycling fan wince?

You say things like Canadian football is "cleaning up since it actually has a testing policy now", apparently with a straight face. Have we not learnt yet that across most professional sports "testing policies" are about reassuring the punters not about catching stars? Cycling has an often ineffectual testing programme, but the sad truth is it also has a testing programme that is vastly superior to that of any other sport.

We know that soccer clubs were running team doping programmes by the late 1990s. We know that cycling's magic doctors work with soccer players, track and field athletes, boxers, etc etc.

In tennis they barely use out of competition testing at all, and they actually refused to bring in a CERA test on the grounds that "it isn't used in tennis". That last one is a particularly brilliant line of argument and cuts right to the core of the approach most sports federations take: If you don't catch people, you can claim you don't have a problem. If you do catch people, sponsors, TV companies and fans start deserting the sport.

The issues to take into account are (1) the rewards for success and (2) the odds of being caught and severely punished. In almost every major sport the rewards are higher and the risks lower than in cycling. In my view, that simple equation is likely to prove more powerful than any amount of assumptions about cycling's strong doping tradition. The people running successful major sports clubs would by and large eat their own mother's still beating heart for an advantage. And doping provides an advantage like no other.

Put yourselves in the shoes of a successful doping doctor who has learnt his trade in cycling, perhaps with a bit of track and field or swimming on the side. Where do you want to continue plying your trade? Working with piddling little cycling outfits in fighting a doping system that actually catches people on a reasonably regular basis? Or working with a baseball / NFL / soccer club that could buy and sell the whole sport of cycling without even noticing, and where you run a near zero risk of some fool getting caught and fingering you? Would you rather work with only cyclists, or with a tennis player who earns as much as an entire cycling team's monthly salary every time he takes a leisurely morning dump?

A lot of people's view rest on the assumptions that major sports teams are stupider or less hungry for victory than cycling teams and that doping doctors are themselves stupid and lacking in ambition. Neither of these assumptions are true.

 

[hrotha]

Put yourselves in the shoes of a successful doping doctor who has learnt his trade in cycling, perhaps with a bit of track and field or swimming on the side. Where do you want to continue plying your trade? Working with piddling little cycling outfits in fighting a doping system that actually catches people on a reasonably regular basis? Or working with a baseball / NFL / soccer club that could buy and sell the whole sport of cycling without even noticing, and where you run a near zero risk of some fool getting caught and fingering you? Would you rather work with only cyclists, or with a tennis player who earns as much as an entire cycling team's monthly salary every time he takes a leisurely morning dump?

Excellent post. As for the bit I quoted, here's an example off the top of my head: Sabino Padilla. Started as a track and field doctor, moved to cycling and coached Indurain, then also became the doctor of football club Athletic de Bilbao. One of their players, Gurpegi, even tested positive, which is saying a lot when we're talking about football.

 

[fujisst]

These types of threads are so lame.
Who cares about what other sports are or aren't doing to combat their doping issues??!! Pro cycling needs to get ITS house in order FIRST and foremost.
Pro cycling must continue looking in the mirror and deal with its problem - not looking out the window or over the fence trying to put the issue into some ridiculous perspective...

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

'Roids are tailor-made for any sport that tends to produce repetitive stress injuries, like golf and tennis. I find it hard to believe that the likes of Nolan Ryan and The Big Unit managed to hurl the heat so late in their careers without the aid of 'roids when so many earlier legendary pitchers like Denny McLain and Sandy Koufax were forced into early retirement because they literally had worn out their arms.

IMHO, the bottom line is that the chances of drugs being endemic in any sport is directly proportional to money that changes hands on its behalf. Even if only pride is at stake, dope will find a way. Target shooters have been known to use beta blockers to increase the chances of firing during the pause between heartbeats. It's not just human sports, either, horse racing and dog racing both have a long and storied history of doping. Truth be told, I'd bet some competitor along the way has experimented with PEDs in the Calaveras County Jumping Frog Contest.

 

[Altitude]

MMA has got to be top 3 in terms of drug contamination.

 

[Altitude]

These types of threads are so lame.

Then don't read them.

 

[hrotha]

These types of threads are so lame.
Who cares about what other sports are or aren't doing to combat their doping issues??!! Pro cycling needs to get ITS house in order FIRST and foremost.
Pro cycling must continue looking in the mirror and deal with its problem - not looking out the window or over the fence trying to put the issue into some ridiculous perspective...

Welcome and all that. If you lurk a bit more you'll notice the predominant attitude around here is that cycling should deal with its own problems regardless of what other sports do, and that's why we can have this kind of thread every now and then to discuss the issue in other sports. We don't do it to feel better about being cycling fans or because we don't want to fight doping, we do it because it's interesting and getting a broader perspective of things is always useful. UCI is not an isolated organization anyway, and IOC shenanigans are crucial in the fight against doping.

 

[D-Queued]

What makes you so sure that cycling is the doping big time? Because weve had more tests? Pleeeasse. I think we all know why other sports dont have as many scandals.

....

No, what I am saying is actually what Zinoviev thinks I am confused about.

You are confusing the sport being an early adopter and experimenter with the issue of where those techniques end up being used. Which is everywhere where speed, endurance, strength or recovery matters. The early adopter sports, like cycling or weightlifting are not hermetically sealed.

...

Cycling is absolutely an early adopter sport. As a marketing person, this is one of the sports I would target first. Same with weightlifting.

These are the reference sports.

Cycling provides (one of) the best testimonial opportunities for the effectiveness of endurance enhancers & recovery pills. Weightlifing likewise provides a 'pure' opportunity to demonstrate how much stronger you can get.

Yes, doping doctors would logically move from cycling and weightlifting to more profitable sports (Hello Dr. Fuentes, Hello Balco). But, what better sport to demonstrate how useful EPO is for a four hour tennis match or a World Cup final in sweltering heat? Kind of like am Alpe d'Huez or a Mt. Ventoux stage, Non?

If you are looking for doping doctors, you would want one that had perfected their techniques, plans and recipes in cycling. 'How did your guy do on the 'Alpe last year?' Gotta gimme somma that.

In terms of the history of doping, cycling was not alone at the end of the 19th century. Professional rowing (and boxing) - with active gambling (strong involvement in the UK & the USA) - had examples where doping appears to have been prevalent and highly ingrained in the turn of the century culture.

The gambling influence disappeared, and professional rowing did also. Until the East Germans picked up doping in the '70s, rowing was pretty lame as a doping opportunity and there is still no professional involvement.

Cycling, though, had a different history. Thanks to the TdF becoming a bigger and bigger man against everything spectacle - backed up by track cycling - cycling became the banner carrier for doping without any break in the involvement.

Dave.

 

[flicker]

These types of threads are so lame.
Who cares about what other sports are or aren't doing to combat their doping issues??!! Pro cycling needs to get ITS house in order FIRST and foremost.
Pro cycling must continue looking in the mirror and deal with its problem - not looking out the window or over the fence trying to put the issue into some ridiculous perspective...

Wrong! Doping in sports is a systematic system of cheating across many sports. There is a pattern in the cheating, it is nationalistic and I guess that the providers of PEDs are international and work with many sports at the same time.

For doping to stop the sporting communities need to work with the authorities for it to stop.

Obviously if the sports where cheating occurs without ramification, Baseball, American Football, European and International Soccer,cyclists are going to think it is OK to cheat. Cycling is a tiny sport. The big sports need to clean up too.

When a cyclist like Grewal is busted for a banned substance and then 2 weeks later is allowed to race in the olympics , I wonder, does that go across for all the athletes on the US team. All sports are culpable and all sports need to work together to end the doping problem.


When Novitzky is able to work with law enforcement in Europe it gives me hope. That has to happen not just with cycling but with all sports.

 

[Mambo95]

MMA has got to be top 3 in terms of drug contamination.

I remember seeing an interview with Brock Lesnar on TV and he was asked whether he used drugs. He response was probably the worst 'denial' ever - it was just some 'roid rage followed by storming out.

As for other sports, I live in South Wales and in some areas steroids are seen as almost recreational drugs. The abuse of 'roids in the valley towns is an open secret and a lot of these people play rugby. I know many people who have quit the sport because of this. However, I wouldn't automatically say this transfers to the pro teams as the pro players really aren't the freaky shape or mentality of the valley boys.

 

[Master50]

These types of threads are so lame.
Who cares about what other sports are or aren't doing to combat their doping issues??!! Pro cycling needs to get ITS house in order FIRST and foremost.
Pro cycling must continue looking in the mirror and deal with its problem - not looking out the window or over the fence trying to put the issue into some ridiculous perspective...

What is happening in Cycling is happening in all sports. The issue is a Question of morality and cyclists are no more bereft of good moral character than any other person, athlete or other. I can appreciate that to you the cycling problem is the most important but the problem is across all people and not just cyclists. You will never rid a problem to a level lower than where it occurs every where. The best that cycling can achieve will be about equal to all sports.
We believe we have a dirty sport but the real truth has to be lower than we expect. Other sports believe they are pure and have no doping problems. They are likely just as wrong as the cycling fans are. It is only through gaining a real perspective can you discover the effect of drug controls and the deterrence factor. There will always be some kind of cheating in sport but there also needs to be vigilance and a will to disrupt it. Cycling, more than any other sport is actively combating the problem. I wish we could absorb the impact of it and maybe be proud of the efforts rather than scornful of them.

 

[D-Queued]

What is happening in Cycling is happening in all sports. The issue is a Question of morality and cyclists are no more bereft of good moral character than any other person, athlete or other. ....

Actually this isn't true - or at least the part that all sports are the same.

Some sports are worse than others.

This isn't due to morality, necessarily, though I don't know how you could prove that. Obviously for some sports, there is an 'escape impoverishment' factor that would lend itself to considering all means necessary.

There is a correlation with how old you are when you first get involved - the maturity of the brain as well as the culture present for the young athletes.

Yes, there is good research on this. No, I am not going to post it now because I am lazy.

Thus, causal factors include:
- Degree of doping benefit
- Existing culture and system
- Money influence (professional & gambling)
- Age of initial participation (and systematic issues at that age)

I think there are a bunch of papers at the UN, WADA and others that discuss these factors.

Coming back to cycling, we have all of these issues - and the purity of the gain in climbing, TT'ing, etc. is huge.

Dave.

 

[flicker]

Sorry clen is sold right on the internet and it is beneficial for many sports. I am sure EPO is beneficial in many sports. An American football player who was in the superbowl was convicted. Dope is across all sports. Cycling doping is a small part of the illegal PED business in sport. The heads of the sports fans and non sports fans needs to come out of the sand, now.

 

[The Hitch]

These types of threads are so lame.
Who cares about what other sports are or aren't doing to combat their doping issues??!! Pro cycling needs to get ITS house in order FIRST and foremost.
Pro cycling must continue looking in the mirror and deal with its problem - not looking out the window or over the fence trying to put the issue into some ridiculous perspective...

If these threads are so lame, dont read them.

I care about doping in other sports, and judging by the responces, others do to.

So thats a fail on your part.

I care because cycling gets laughed at as the stupid sport where all those evil cyclists dope all the time, while every one else is clean.

I care because cyclists are treated as criminals, when they kill themselves for 40 000 a year, while people getting 20 million a year are allowed to get away with it.

Actually this isn't true - or at least the part that all sports are the same.

Some sports are worse than others.

This isn't due to morality, necessarily, though I don't know how you could prove that. Obviously for some sports, there is an 'escape impoverishment' factor that would lend itself to considering all means necessary.

There is a correlation with how old you are when you first get involved - the maturity of the brain as well as the culture present for the young athletes.

Yes, there is good research on this. No, I am not going to post it now because I am lazy.

Thus, causal factors include:
- Degree of doping benefit
- Existing culture and system
- Money influence (professional & gambling)
- Age of initial participation (and systematic issues at that age)

I think there are a bunch of papers at the UN, WADA and others that discuss these factors.

Coming back to cycling, we have all of these issues - and the purity of the gain in climbing, TT'ing, etc. is huge.

Dave.

You argue as if the allegation maintains itself.

You are yet to provide 1 point as to why you think Cycling is so much worse than other sports.

So far all you have said is that cycling is worse. Why?

Because some sports are worse than others.

 

[ingsve]

From 2003 (pre Floyd & 1999 Positives):

We've compiled a list of 10 of the most influential – and bizarre – drug cases in the past few decades. It's a long, strange trip indeed, including:

1. E. German athletes & government sponsored cheating
2. 1983 Pan Am Games: Dawn of drug testing
3. The U.S. Track & Field coverups
4. Canada's shame: Ben Johnson
5. Last to first: Irish swimmer Michelle Smith
6. Fake dynasty: Chinese swim team
7. Tour de France: Whatever it takes
8. Baseball: Home runs in bulk
9. Cross country skiing and doping: a Nordic tradition
10. Nandrolone goes for the Grand Slam

#3 could be extended to include the USOC coverups, which definitely included you-know-who.

Dave

This reminds me of the 1993 and 1997 chinese running "miracles" where a group of chinese female runners led by trainer Ma Junren crushed all records on middle and long distance running, records that remain unbeaten to this day.

Although nothing has been proven, as far as I know, this has to be the result of EPO right? It's right in the height of the EPO era.

 

[Maxiton]

Last year I got into a discussion with a tourist from Europe. It didn't take long to discover a mutual interest in cycling (as participants). This gent, who appeared to be around 60, said he'd been involved in competitive Track & Field in the late sixties/early seventies. He told me he'd competed head to head against Bruce Jenner, and that
the two had been consistently equal in their capabilities and results. Their paths diverged when this guy decided to leave competition for the sake of further schooling and a
business career, while Jenner pursued an Olympic dream.

A year after their last competition together, this guy saw Jenner on TV, he said, at the '72 Olympics, looking altogether different and posting results that were far and away better than anything he'd produced before. This guy said that when he saw this he knew right away what was up: steroids. Today, Bruce Jenner makes a living as a motivational speaker and has his own website, where he bills himself as "The World's Greatest Athlete."

I agree with Zinoviev Letter, The Hitch, and the others who have said that doping in sport is directly proportional to the rewards for doing it vs. the chance of getting
caught. In most professional sports in the US the rewards are HUGE (much, much greater than in Jenner's day) and the chance of getting caught NIL - nil as in zip,zilch,
etc. In fact doping permeates US sport even down to the junior level. At the better US secondary (i.e. high) schools, for instance, EPO and steroid use is often encouraged
by the coaches, for christ's sake. It was that way in the ninties, anyway, and I doubt much has changed. (I wonder how many Texas high school football programs, for
instance, are devoid of PEDs? None, would be my guess.)

Everybody is aware of the culture of doping in cycling. But the problem is if anything worse in other sports.

 

[131313]

Canadian Pro Football ... cleaning up since it actually has a testing policy now, but where the NFL used to send its recidivist doping cast-offs like Ricky Williams

I'd hardly call Ricky Williams a doping recidivist. It wouldn't surprise me if he never took any performance-enhancing drugs. He certainly never tested positive for them. His case is actually a good example of just how screwed up the NFL's drug policy really is, though... Comparing his case to Brian Cushing's is pretty telling.

 

[D-Queued]

...
You argue as if the allegation maintains itself.

You are yet to provide 1 point as to why you think Cycling is so much worse than other sports.

So far all you have said is that cycling is worse. Why?

Because some sports are worse than others.

I am going to go with the assumption that you are sincere.

The allegation as you call it is based upon extensive study of both the history of doping in cycling and other sports. I realize that I only have a few posts on this site, but I have followed this phenomenon for years now.

But, I post anonymously and my word should not carry any weight. Thus, allow me to provide just the lightest dusting of snow on the very top of the tip of the iceberg with respect to the extensive literature on this subject.

Before I do that, please allow me to set aside any qualifying statements and simply note that cycling is the number one worst sport for doping.

Some annotated citations:

A culture of doping in cycling? Anything that could go, must

...every single winner of the Tour de France since 1996 - either they are known drug users, or they are rumoured to have doped (with plenty of circumstantial evidence), or they are currently being tried (as in the case of Floyd Landis)... [update this to 2010 with Contador, and only the possible exception of Sastre since 1996]

...culture of cycling and why exactly it seems to be so 'rotten' with drug use...

...Anquetil’s recorded comment is that: “You would have to be an imbecile or a crook to imagine that a professional cyclist who races for 235 days a year can hold the pace without stimulants"...

Ethics of Performance Enhancement in Sport

… in cycling, where we assume that almost every athlete is taking EPO or blood doping…

…We are all familiar with the regular doping scandals at each major sporting event. In some sports, such as cycling, it is said to be endemic …

French philosopher Robert Redeker (2002) said, Cycling is becoming a video game; the onetime ‘prisoners of the road’ have become virtual human beings

…Four different factors led governments to move towards intervening in the international sports doping regulatory world. First, there was resentment of the growing arrogance and pretensions of the federations and the IOC, who relegated governments to junior partners in increasingly large projects. Second was the near collapse of the 1998 Tour de France due to widespread doing, where the (International Federation – UCI) for cycling seemed unable to stop doping and government officials intervened...

Doping in Sport

In 1869 (one of the earliest known examples of doping in the modern era), cycling coaches prepared heroin and cocaine mixtures for riders…

…Individual governments used and continue to use a combination of inducements and sanctions to ensure that sporting federations properly regulate doping. The nations to take the first action were nations where cycling was a major sport and amphetamine abuse was a persistent problem…

SPORT, DRUGS AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN CAPITALISM

Sometimes the effects have been fatal with the first recorded death in the history of modern sport in a cycle race in 1886. This was but the first of many drug related deaths in cycling with the most memorable being the death of British cyclist, Tony Simpson in 1967...

A (socio) economic analysis of doping in elite sport

From the moment Willy Voet (the Belgian soigneur of the French Festina cycling team) was arrested in 1998, his car filled with EPO and growth hormones, the discussion on doping has not left the media…

…Drug testing of humans began in the late 1950s when, after several European cycling and track races, evidence of drug use was found…

…doping can make a difference in a lot of sports. EPO makes a difference in cycling…

…The choice is also strongly related to the sports culture. Cycling is the bestknown example, they use drugs ‘to do their job…

Given our conclusion that the commercialisation of sports increases the likeliness of doping use…it is clear that football and cycling are highly commercialised

The first example of modern doping
The first athlete death from doping
The first anti-doping tests
The raison d'etre for the creation of WADA
The long observed 'endemic' nature
The 'Best known culture of doping'

But, if you want, we can still go with 'because I said so'.

Dave.

 

[Hawkwood]

A culture of doping in cycling? Anything that could go, must

A (socio) economic analysis of doping in elite sport

I've just taken a quick look at the two sources above, the other wouldn't load, but I'll try later. The first is not a scientific study of doping in sport, in fact it's mainly anecdotal, for example the author states `The first point is that the Tour de France must be one of the first sporting events where doping was practiced.', evidence, references...? And this is odd when there are accounts of doping in cycling and other sports before the Tour was invented, and the second article even mentions doping in ancient Rome and Greece!

I haven't read all of the second article above, however it does make the case that the incidence of doping positives in cycling can be linked to the fact that cycling organisations have set out to test cyclists, while other sports/countries haven't.

 

[workingclasshero]

This reminds me of the 1993 and 1997 chinese running "miracles" where a group of chinese female runners led by trainer Ma Junren crushed all records on middle and long distance running, records that remain unbeaten to this day.

Although nothing has been proven, as far as I know, this has to be the result of EPO right? It's right in the height of the EPO era.

a load of athletes trained by ma junren were chucked out of the sydney olympics after being caught.

reading about the 1993 exploits just makes you laugh really

wang ran a 14:26 split for her last half of the 10,000 WR which would have been the world record in the 5000 by 11 secs and it would have stood up to 2004!

It is still so good she is the sixth fastest 5000m runner ever, and i repeat, that was the last 5000 of a 10.000m!

there is absolutely no question ma junren pumped the girl (?) full of drugs, i just wonder what, how much and for how long

 

[The Hitch]

I am going to go with the assumption that you are sincere.

The allegation as you call it is based upon extensive study of both the history of doping in cycling and other sports. I realize that I only have a few posts on this site, but I have followed this phenomenon for years now.

But, I post anonymously and my word should not carry any weight. Thus, allow me to provide just the lightest dusting of snow on the very top of the tip of the iceberg with respect to the extensive literature on this subject.

Before I do that, please allow me to set aside any qualifying statements and simply note that cycling is the number one worst sport for doping.

Some annotated citations:

A culture of doping in cycling? Anything that could go, must




Ethics of Performance Enhancement in Sport



Doping in Sport



SPORT, DRUGS AND THE DEVELOPMENT OF MODERN CAPITALISM



A (socio) economic analysis of doping in elite sport



The first example of modern doping
The first athlete death from doping
The first anti-doping tests
The raison d'etre for the creation of WADA
The long observed 'endemic' nature
The 'Best known culture of doping'

But, if you want, we can still go with 'because I said so'.

Dave.

First of all half if not more of the quotations you post deal with the past. Cycling in the early 2000's, cycling in the 90's and then even cycling in the 19th century.

We are talking about today. The age of ultra fast injury recoveries, constant world records, and super drugs like epo.

Second of all, everything in your post is based on the assumption that sports with the most doping scandals must be the most dirty.

So ill make the point again, as others have made before me on here. Other sports DO NOT, test anywhere near as much as cycling. Their tests arent as thorough as cycling. THeir governing bodies do more to protect them from anti doping. Their teams and sponsors do more to protect them from anti doping.
The media doesnt even examine doping in their sports, while cycling gets constantly piled on by the press as the sport with all those bad dopers.

Thats why you dont have doping scandals in other sports. So all those saying that cycling is the wors because floyd failed a drugs test after being tested more times in a week then most Soccer players get in a year, can shove it.

You have the philosopher saying that every cyclist in 2002 was taking epo. So what. I dont deny cycling is full of doping. In fact i constantly argue on these boards that ALL cyclists dope, to some degree or another.


So the fact that some French philosopher says that cycling is full of doping means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING with regard to this argument.
In order to have an argument, what you need is that same philosopher to go study the nfl, properly, and then come out and say that he knows for 100% sure that the doping in the nfl isnt as bad as cycling.

You can not, i repeat, you CAN NOT, argue that cycling is the WORST sport, by simply arguing that cycling is bad. You need to present an argument as to why you think other sports are better.

What makes you so sure that the NFL or the Premier League or rugby players, and track athletes and skiers etc, arent all doping to the gills too?

Me, Maxiton and Zvinoviev letter have presented the case why we believe the contrary to be true. Time for you to step up and make your case.

 

[D-Queued]

I've just taken a quick look at the two sources above, the other wouldn't load, but I'll try later. The first is not a scientific study of doping in sport, in fact it's mainly anecdotal, for example the author states `The first point is that the Tour de France must be one of the first sporting events where doping was practiced.', evidence, references...? And this is odd when there are accounts of doping in cycling and other sports before the Tour was invented, and the second article even mentions doping in ancient Rome and Greece!

I haven't read all of the second article above, however it does make the case that the incidence of doping positives in cycling can be linked to the fact that cycling organisations have set out to test cyclists, while other sports/countries haven't.

This is funny.

You are dismissing the first link, but what about the quote they cite from Anquetil?

Even body building, with its two-tiers based on doping, does not openly claim that doping is just part of the sport.

As for the second, why did they choose to test cyclists? Because they had so much money that they thought they would waste it on tests for cyclists? Because cyclists will line up for anything? Because everyone needs a dog to kick, and cycling serves that purpose?

Sorry that a bunch of people decided to target cycling above other sports - because maybe more than one person/country thought there was a big problem there.

Wasn't cycling the LAST sport to sign onto the Code as required by the IOC? What was the UCI hiding?

Surely part of the UCI argument was that cycling is more than capable - nudge, nudge, wink, wink - of taking care of itself.

As noted, this is simply a sprinkling of thoughts on the subject.

You may not regard the first article - from the Science of Sport - as scientific, but those two authors are often cited on this forum and others.

However, go ahead just slip past these two authors and onto the papers from the Centre for Practical Ethics at Oxford, Harvard Law, LA84 Foundation & University of New South Wales, the European Commission, etc.

(Please note that I didn't bother citing WADA, the IOC, etc. as these sources tend to receive the greatest emotive arguments on cycling forums populated by apologists, fan boys and PR agencies.)

Or, you could just take the blinders off.

- Last International Sports Federation to sign the code
- First doping death at the Olympics
- Convicts of the road (Les Forçats de la Route)
- Pot Belge
- Rule book that reminds TdF participants that drugs will not be provided (by the organizers)
- First sport with a Hematocrit 'limit'
- First sport with known use of EPO
- At least fourteen deaths related to EPO use soon after it became available
- Past winner of the Tour admitted to doping during his win, and receives not so much as an asterisk

ad nauseum

From 1996 to 2010, only one 'winner' of the Tour has not been found guilty of doping, under active investigation for doping, admitted to doping, or the subject of strong anecdotal doping evidence. And he was riding for a guy that admitted to doping and his first pro contract was with ONCE, one of the most notorious doping squads.

If you don't like doping in cycling, then do something about it.

Dave.