Doping in XCO Mountain Biking: Now with Chicks!

[chuckmicD]

Dear Clinicians,

I wonder if you have thoughts on doping in XCO mountain biking?

XCO is just an acronym for cross-country racing for those not following the sport.

If you do follow the sport...then you've seen Nino Schurter and Julien Absalon battling it out for first and second place at the world cups, dropping the rest of the pro field almost every time. They appear full *** and have for some time. Just watch the final lap of any race this year.

Fyi in case it makes this thread more interesting to you roadies-only types... Nino has raced some pro road, like the Tour of Romandie.

Thoughts?

Also, seems to be a curious absence of doping cases in MTB...and I can't believe they are cleaner just cos they ride in the dirt....

Cheers,

 

[proffate]

I don't follow the sport but I understand Americans used to be good at it (in the 90s) and then Euros came in and started smashing them because of Europe's vastly greater doping infrastructure. Of course Americans could dope too but there was probably less history of it as it was a relatively new discipline.

 

[thehook]

Well as an "Old School MTB XC Rider". I can guess that there was doping in XC for a long time. The Tomac era I think was fairly clean. But once you started to see guys/gals like Bart Brentjenes, Rasmussen, Frishy, Miguel Martinez, Paolo Pezzo. Thats when the dope was flowing IMHO. Then you had the Canadiens basically destroy both the men and women's scene. Ryder & Roland. I saw Roland in the 99 or 2000. Mt Snow XC race destroy the field! I remember Lance was there so. Roland went passed me flying uphill effortlessly. Then there was a sharp left turn. Over a short water crossing bridge. He dismounted and hopped up some rocks and roots. Dude made it look like a Joke! I mean this was some Spiderman type stuff!!

XC Mtb now is just road riders who go really fast on dirt!

 

[chuckmicD]

This was partly due to the end of John Tomac's career, the combustion of NORBA and the inclusion of cross-country mountain biking in the Olympics.

Nevertheless...the top XCO riders seem like pure fodder for the Clinic...

Seems like the topic of doping never even comes up when discussing the performances of the top men and women. Jolanda Neff just destroys the entire pro field all on her own! Rips the climbs and then bombs the descents....and believe me...normal humans would be seeing sideways at the tops of these climbs...

 

[chuckmicD]

Agree with most of what ya said thehook..but can't agree with you on the last part. Some of today's tracks are pretty technical, and if you watch a guy like Schurter...he is a truly gifted descender...not some namby pamby roadie who can't handle his bike like Pinot.

Plus the Swiss dominate mtb xco today. Seriously. It's like they have a NATIONAL dope program over there..

 

[King Boonen]

I'm sure the top guys are all doping but most of it is probably not coordinated.

Got to agree on Nino's ability, unbelievably good descender and on technical courses it can make a real difference:

Also, Kenta Gallagher has moved on the the Downhill World Cup and is doing very well, all these guys know how to handle a bike.

 

[BeagRigh]

I've often wondered about Enduros ... as the series is outside the UCI/IOC I'm not sure there is any testing?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Plus the Swiss dominate mtb xco today. Seriously. It's like they have a NATIONAL dope program over there..

interesting.

in cyclo-cross, the Belgian dominance has been so ridiculous, i can only explain it by assuming the Belgian cyclo-cross scene has a better 'infrastructure' (winkwink) than in other countries.
Of course, cyclo cross is big in Belgium.
but imo they wouldn't produce that amount of winners if they didn't have a superior doping network.

Compare also ice-skating.
No place better to dope and skate than in the Netherlands.
Dutch doping facilities for iceskating are so superior that right now international iceskating is basically a national affair.

 

[chuckmicD]

Re:

I'm sure the top guys are all doping but most of it is probably not coordinated.

Got to agree on Nino's ability, unbelievably good descender and on technical courses it can make a real difference:

Also, Kenta Gallagher has moved on the the Downhill World Cup and is doing very well, all these guys know how to handle a bike.

For sure. Kenta's a beast. And lots of the top xc riders regardless of gender ride like maniacs. Always makes me laugh a litle inside when somebody on the Clinic mocks an ex-mtb rider's handling skills. Usually somebody who's never thrown a leg over a bike with a knobby tire. Even Froomedawg, regardless of his program, I'll bet is a ripper on a dirty descent. Show them roadies a goddamn thing or two!

I counter your Nino with a Jolanda:

Surely if there were a program it would be different than road because there are no real team tactics in xco--though it could still flow from the top.

As for enduro, check out this link, where an "Unnamed FRENCH rider tested positive at MEGAavalanche for a masking agent and many other riders talk about doping in the sport. Yet how often do we hear about any cases:

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/mattwragg/blog/Doping-in-Enduro-Crime-and-Punishment.html

A gem from the above piece: "doping won't help in DH marathon/enduro because it's all about technical ability." Bite me. Anybody who's ever ridden a proper downhill track will know it sure as hell ain't all "technical ability."

edit: and another quote: "Fred Glo, the organiser of the French Enduro series is vocal in his discontent and has written to the FFC stating that, "The current situation is not acceptable with the information we have. I want to know what to expect if this kind of case comes up in the future in the Enduro series. If the situation stays like this, it’s a very bad sign to give to riders and it cannot stay like it is." Sadly, this isn't the first time Fred has faced this kind of situation. In 2008 a rider named Franck Parolin was banned for six months by the FFC for using a banned substance while competing in a road competition away from Enduro racing. That ban has long since passed, but Fred's approach is "zero compromise," and he will never again be welcome at a French Enduro series race. As a race organiser this is understandable, anything less means being sucked into a world of complex judgements and grey areas. This way the message for riders is clear: no drugs. "

Test positive in ANY event...and you are out at the french enduro series. Balls so big he can't sit down.

 

[chuckmicD]

Re: Re:

Plus the Swiss dominate mtb xco today. Seriously. It's like they have a NATIONAL dope program over there..

interesting.

in cyclo-cross, the Belgian dominance has been so ridiculous, i can only explain it by assuming the Belgian cyclo-cross scene has a better 'infrastructure' (winkwink) than in other countries.
Of course, cyclo cross is big in Belgium.
but imo they wouldn't produce that amount of winners if they didn't have a superior doping network.

Compare also ice-skating.
No place better to dope and skate than in the Netherlands.
Dutch doping facilities for iceskating are so superior that right now international iceskating is basically a national affair.

Oh yeah. A couple of their top riders...meeusen, sweeck and wellens were all in hot water over ozone "therapy" but they got off on a technicality and were even admitted into the world champs! I think it wasn't quite illegal at the time.

http://cyclocrossrider.com/racing/belgian-worlds-medal-hopes-hit-by-ozone-case

 

[May0maniac]

Re:

I'm sure the top guys are all doping but most of it is probably not coordinated.

Got to agree on Nino's ability, unbelievably good descender and on technical courses it can make a real difference:

Also, Kenta Gallagher has moved on the the Downhill World Cup and is doing very well, all these guys know how to handle a bike.

Watching Julien Absalon with bad weather and lots of rain is also awesome, he also seems to bbe on a weight loss programm since 2014.
"I changed my diet. I don't eat any more pasta. I eat totally different, so I lost 2-3kg but output the same watts. So with less weight, I feel better and less tired."
source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/absalon-back-in-rainbow-stripes-after-seven-years/

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

Also, seems to be a curious absence of doping cases in MTB...and I can't believe they are cleaner just cos they ride in the dirt....

OP living under a rock? Former XCO world champions with a history that I can pull right off the top of my head include;

- Dupouey (RIP), Meirhaeghe, Green, and Pezzo all busted in some form or another while still competing.
- Rasmussen so obvious, although not busted while riding XCO.
- Chiotti, only pro rider I can think of to publicly admit PED use and renounce a big title after the fact, while not under any duress of any kind from a pending investigation or similar, apparently purely out of his own conscience.

As mentioned by another poster, another whole slew of Canadians aside from Green, including the miraculous Hesjedal.

One would guess this is only the tip of the iceberg, although the decline in racer salaries for much of the field (with possible exceptions like Absalon and Schurter) after the early goldrush days of commercial MTB expansion may have slowed things a bit.

Still, there's obviously more of a skill element to MTB compared to road. Not saying skills don't make a difference on the road too, but to be at the top it's more critical in MTB. Some of the better riders have declined to pursue a road career, despite seemingly having the physical talents to make a go of it. Could it be to avoid a heavier PED culture?

 

[chuckmicD]

Also, seems to be a curious absence of doping cases in MTB...and I can't believe they are cleaner just cos they ride in the dirt....

OP living under a rock? Former XCO world champions with a history that I can pull right off the top of my head include;

- Dupouey (RIP), Meirhaeghe, Green, and Pezzo all busted in some form or another while still competing.
- Rasmussen so obvious, although not busted while riding XCO.
- Chiotti, only pro rider I can think of to publicly admit PED use and renounce a big title after the fact, while not under any duress of any kind from a pending investigation or similar, apparently purely out of his own conscience.

As mentioned by another poster, another whole slew of Canadians aside from Green, including the miraculous Hesjedal.

I'm talking about the current xco field.

 

[Weapons of @ss Destruction]

I'm talking about the current xco field.

Fair enough. Looking at the current field there's nothing direct that I have come across (someone might post up with something new to me), and instead we're left to speculate on the present mostly based on past riders and their transgressions. The road side has always been status quo, just more and more dopers as the years go by. Does MTB follow a different trend from its past?

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

This was partly due to the end of John Tomac's career, the combustion of NORBA and the inclusion of cross-country mountain biking in the Olympics.

Nevertheless...the top XCO riders seem like pure fodder for the Clinic...

Seems like the topic of doping never even comes up when discussing the performances of the top men and women. Jolanda Neff just destroys the entire pro field all on her own! Rips the climbs and then bombs the descents....and believe me...normal humans would be seeing sideways at the tops of these climbs...

Just trying to get this straight. The end of Tomac's career opened the door to doping?

mkay?

Dave.

 

[heythorp]

Re:

Plus the Swiss dominate mtb xco today. Seriously. It's like they have a NATIONAL dope program over there..

This has been bugging me for years. A country with a population of 8 million will have like 7 guys in the top 10. And the announcers will go on and on about how amazing the Swiss are and how much the dominate the sport.They actually laugh about it.

Someone else mentioned the Belgium dominance in CX. That too is absolutely crazy.

 

[chuckmicD]

Re: Re:

This was partly due to the end of John Tomac's career, the combustion of NORBA and the inclusion of cross-country mountain biking in the Olympics.

Nevertheless...the top XCO riders seem like pure fodder for the Clinic...

Seems like the topic of doping never even comes up when discussing the performances of the top men and women. Jolanda Neff just destroys the entire pro field all on her own! Rips the climbs and then bombs the descents....and believe me...normal humans would be seeing sideways at the tops of these climbs...

Just trying to get this straight. The end of Tomac's career opened the door to doping?

mkay?

Dave.

This was in response to another poster on the decline of US cross country racing. Not doping per se.

Though not all drugs are bad. I like ibuprofen.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I'm sure the top guys are all doping but most of it is probably not coordinated.

Got to agree on Nino's ability, unbelievably good descender and on technical courses it can make a real difference:

Also, Kenta Gallagher has moved on the the Downhill World Cup and is doing very well, all these guys know how to handle a bike.

For sure. Kenta's a beast. And lots of the top xc riders regardless of gender ride like maniacs. Always makes me laugh a litle inside when somebody on the Clinic mocks an ex-mtb rider's handling skills. Usually somebody who's never thrown a leg over a bike with a knobby tire. Even Froomedawg, regardless of his program, I'll bet is a ripper on a dirty descent. Show them roadies a goddamn thing or two!

I counter your Nino with a Jolanda:

Very cool! And yes, most ex-MTBers can really handle a bike, Froome included.

Surely if there were a program it would be different than road because there are no real team tactics in xco--though it could still flow from the top.

I'm guessing it would be more akin to doping in athletics or tennis, between the athlete and their coaching team. Better athlete/team, more money, better program.

As for enduro, check out this link, where an "Unnamed FRENCH rider tested positive at MEGAavalanche for a masking agent and many other riders talk about doping in the sport. Yet how often do we hear about any cases:

http://www.pinkbike.com/u/mattwragg/blog/Doping-in-Enduro-Crime-and-Punishment.html

A gem from the above piece: "doping won't help in DH marathon/enduro because it's all about technical ability." Bite me. Anybody who's ever ridden a proper downhill track will know it sure as hell ain't all "technical ability."
[/img]

A proper downhill track can be won on technical ability alone, check out Gwin's chainless win at Leogang.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-aaron-gwin-chainless-leogang-2015.html

But yes, a lot of DH tracks involve a fair bit of pedalling and some of those guys look in very good shape. I think it's less likely than any other discipline, but could still well be going on.

edit: and another quote: "Fred Glo, the organiser of the French Enduro series is vocal in his discontent and has written to the FFC stating that, "The current situation is not acceptable with the information we have. I want to know what to expect if this kind of case comes up in the future in the Enduro series. If the situation stays like this, it’s a very bad sign to give to riders and it cannot stay like it is." Sadly, this isn't the first time Fred has faced this kind of situation. In 2008 a rider named Franck Parolin was banned for six months by the FFC for using a banned substance while competing in a road competition away from Enduro racing. That ban has long since passed, but Fred's approach is "zero compromise," and he will never again be welcome at a French Enduro series race. As a race organiser this is understandable, anything less means being sucked into a world of complex judgements and grey areas. This way the message for riders is clear: no drugs. "

Test positive in ANY event...and you are out at the french enduro series. Balls so big he can't sit down.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if people were using drugs in Enduro racing. That's the kind of riding I do and it's bloody tiring, absolutely hammers your body and they are going flat out over two days. No idea about testing on the EWS, pretty sure you'd get a fair few recreation positives too...

 

[Al Lesklar]

Re: Re:

A country with a population of 8 million will have like 7 guys in the top 10.

It's probably the guys who weren't good enough for the ski team. You do know that almost all of Switzerland is within thirty minutes of some serious mountain.

 

[Anaconda]

Re: Re:

A country with a population of 8 million will have like 7 guys in the top 10.

It's probably the guys who weren't good enough for the ski team. You do know that almost all of Switzerland is within thirty minutes of some serious mountain.

Switzerland has had the most fertile xc mountain bike scene of any country for ages now. It really is part of the culture. Having multiple stars for the young riders to look up to since the early days of the sport, a great National race series attended by the Swiss and foreign stars, and a solid National Team program all contributing to factors to making them a lead Nation in the sport.

Regarding anti doping they have had proper out of comp testing program in place for their mtn bike athletes long before this was common in other countries.

Not that clinically any of this proves anything. But there are some logical reasons to expect the Swiss to be a strong xc Nation.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

This was partly due to the end of John Tomac's career, the combustion of NORBA and the inclusion of cross-country mountain biking in the Olympics.

Nevertheless...the top XCO riders seem like pure fodder for the Clinic...

Seems like the topic of doping never even comes up when discussing the performances of the top men and women. Jolanda Neff just destroys the entire pro field all on her own! Rips the climbs and then bombs the descents....and believe me...normal humans would be seeing sideways at the tops of these climbs...

Just trying to get this straight. The end of Tomac's career opened the door to doping?

mkay?

Dave.

This was in response to another poster on the decline of US cross country racing. Not doping per se.

Though not all drugs are bad. I like ibuprofen.

Ah, by inference the end of Tomac's career opened the door to a decline in US doping. Horrors.



Just twisting your words and jerking your chain... but it is funny.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Well, same old observations apply:

Xco is a development sport for UCI road.
Anyone remember the chicken? That for me is classic wildly varying doper results. Consistent performances are to me less suspicious.

The Belgians run cyclocross from inside the UCI. That's the only explanation for a world cup race the day after Christmas. It's not even corruption as no one seems to mind.

 

[mikez]

Re:

I've often wondered about Enduros ... as the series is outside the UCI/IOC I'm not sure there is any testing?

They test for weed. If you are smoking inferior quality you get style points deducted.

 

[chuckmicD]

They'll test for weed but not for Viagra. Go figure.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

A country with a population of 8 million will have like 7 guys in the top 10.

It's probably the guys who weren't good enough for the ski team. You do know that almost all of Switzerland is within thirty minutes of some serious mountain.

Switzerland has had the most fertile xc mountain bike scene of any country for ages now. It really is part of the culture. Having multiple stars for the young riders to look up to since the early days of the sport, a great National race series attended by the Swiss and foreign stars, and a solid National Team program all contributing to factors to making them a lead Nation in the sport.

Regarding anti doping they have had proper out of comp testing program in place for their mtn bike athletes long before this was common in other countries.

Not that clinically any of this proves anything. But there are some logical reasons to expect the Swiss to be a strong xc Nation.

All true.

Having raced a lot of XC as an amateur, I often wished I was on the juice. There are many chances to go full anaerobic -- nothing like seeing your HRM go over 200 bpm once in a while -- so it would seem that EPO would be especially effective. Arguing against widespread full on doping is the relative lack of visibility and rewards for the sport.

There have definitely been transgressions in the past, but the MTB boom is largely over, at least in the US. Here in France it's still quite popular, tilting toward the enduro side. I don't believe the Enduro series tests as it's pretty low-budget (even if the bikes aren't) and isn't really aligned with other sanctioning bodies from what I recall.