Doping Ring in Girona + responses to Tondo's revelation

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The JV blog might be worthy of its own thread.

Anyway, I find it difficult to see why he would brand Tondo a doper but thought (maybe still does?) Contdor was clean when he wanted to recruit him. Maybe poor judgement is the problem here, not the concept of judging characters before they are "proven guilty".
 
Apr 28, 2010
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Ferminal said:
The JV blog might be worthy of its own thread.

Anyway, I find it difficult to see why he would brand Tondo a doper but thought (maybe still does?) Contdor was clean when he wanted to recruit him. Maybe poor judgement is the problem here, not the concept of judging characters before they are "proven guilty".
Yep, there's clear deficit of thought with the "[Tondo/rider X] cannot compete at a high level without doping" and wanting to sign Contador. It's a shame as JV's own blindness could have driven a lesser rider to doping or retirement. If you were begging to join "the Clean Team" (Tm) but rejected on the basis that you must be doping, many others may well have thought "Screw it, might as well then" or "Screw it, I'm outta here". Nice of JV to apologise openly like that, though.

I'd like to hear from JV following the Contador case how he believes anything less than full transparency is satisfactory when it comes to doping. Maybe it would work with a governing body interested in weeding out dopers, but not with the UCI.
 
how to read JV words? "the connecting the dots" thing is what people do in this forum, and it's false. It shows how hypocrit people can be.
Anyway, and I like Tondo a lot, but JV's message is misleading, because the fact that XT dennounced the doping ring, doesn't mean that his past is suddenly clean, I'm not saying he was in doping.. neither... I just critisize the ilusionist world based in prejugments in which people fall!
 
frenchfry said:
I am pretty much a fence sitter when it comes to JV's approach. This blog makes me think that he has trouble stepping back and understanding why knowlegeble fans react as they do to the endless doping scandals and the reality that doping is still a major problem in cycling with no end in sight.

The worst thing that could happen is that the forums become silent and let the UCI manage the PR inconvenience uncontested.

Di Luca, Rebbelin, Ricco, Schumacher, Rasmussen, Armstrong, Heras, Landis, ect. etc. The "I told you so" list is a long one and still growing. Is/was Tondo clean? The problem remains that we still just can't be sure.

By the way JV, I am anonymous without being anonymous so what is your point? That my opinion is only valid if I am well known by everyone? You lost a lot of credibility with that outburst.
I'm with you FF.

Anyone that rides with me has heard me state what I have posted and more. And, my fellow riders have openly discussed things like pills being handed out from team cars. Riders injecting in the middle of a race. Etc.

Knowing my position on the subject does not stop them from asking me "Do you need any help". Or, perhaps, more subtly, "A friend of mine who plays tennis swears that 'X' really works for him". "Says its great".

The problem is that if you have proven your strength, if you have built comraderie, and if your teammates want to race with you and have your full support, they want you to have some help. They want to ride with you, not have you drop off the back.

Or the opposite "Why don't you retire". The latter coming, over and over, from a coach who openly and frequently brags about doping while racing in Europe, including as a National Champion of a European country. Did you get yourself some religion, yet?

For JV to state:

The chattering, anonymous fans hurling comments and critiques are so hurtful. I can’t imagine saying such things to anyone, not even my worst enemy.
Is BS.

As you note FF, I am only pseudo-anonymous. Just like any frequent poster here.

In fact, lots of people, including JV, know who I am. Some of my friends even follow my posts, knowing full well what to expect.

The people have spoken, and we don't like doping. Welcome to freedom of speach and a democratic approach.

Dave.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Aguirre said:
how to read JV words? "the connecting the dots" thing is what people do in this forum, and it's false. It shows how hypocrit people can be.
Anyway, and I like Tondo a lot, but JV's message is misleading, because the fact that XT dennounced the doping ring, doesn't mean that his past is suddenly clean, I'm not saying he was in doping.. neither... I just critisize the ilusionist world based in prejugments in which people fall!
That's pretty much where I land. But I think JV's real angle was that they never gave him a chance to get data to come to a sound judgement. And that "on balance" he is now thinking they should have given him that chance, and assumes that the totality of it all now indicates that it bodes well for "present Tondo".

I suspect that JV's now states a stronger case for Tondo, leaning the other way, than the introduction of one new dot technically allow, because he knows the full implications for rider who steps up to the plate.

Yes, the cynic in me knows full well that this could arguably be because he has a different supplier. But he could have just ignored it and cover his **** that way, or find a way to cover his **** well away from the officials' attention (police and all, not the UCI).

Instead he reported. JV will know that this will invoke scrutiny to some degree at an official level. Tondo picked that route, voluntary. That does takes courage and injects added hassle into your private life too, even if you have nothing to hide. And coupled with other indicators that JV is no doubt privy to (the other testimonies he hinted at, but discarded/undervalued at the time), it bodes well for Tondo now.

It also highlights, that between the lines, JV is saying something clearly, again. That as late as the Vuelta last year, in his mind, some notable levels of accomplishments are still highly suspect, even to a trained insider's eye. That reaching a certain level on its own triggers at least the next question: what path did the rider follow to get here?

At "calm" DS level, and not just the "paranoid" Clinic.

There is nothing wrong with connecting the dots. It is what using your brain is all about. Nearly all thinking takes place based on imperfect information. The trick to reach sound conclusions is to know what the dots actually allow you to connect, and to keep remembering where the assumption took place, or what alternatives are technically still in play.

And revisit the attitude or decision tree when the situation warrants it. It looks JV had a reason here to do just that. A willingness to look at old assumptions in a new light. It suits the man. I hope his new assumptions are better.

All the more since Tondo has gone up a bit on my internal ladder too, for similar reasons.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Ferminal said:
The JV blog might be worthy of its own thread.
I opted to change the thread title instead for clarity, as it's all fall-out from the same incident. It's a good thread as it is. Let's keep it all together.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Aguirre said:
how to read JV words? "the connecting the dots" thing is what people do in this forum, and it's false. It shows how hypocrit people can be.
Anyway, and I like Tondo a lot, but JV's message is misleading, because the fact that XT dennounced the doping ring, doesn't mean that his past is suddenly clean, I'm not saying he was in doping.. neither... I just critisize the ilusionist world based in prejugments in which people fall!
Another option is giving up one doping ring/pusher in favor of another and gaining the PR at the same time, even politicians use this approach.

JV connects the dots, well why wouldn't he, which teams was he on and with the knowledge of what happened there he knows the dots are connected. Why else?
 
Oct 29, 2009
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BroDeal said:
He might be paranoid. There he is, a pro cyclist. He receives an unsolicited e-mail offering to sell him dope. What does he do? He could delete the e-mail and forget about it, but an operation sloppy enough to send out e-mails like that is bound to get busted. Does he want a leak to the press that he was one of those receiving e-mail from the doping ring? He could also be suspicious that he is being set up. An easy way out is to turn the e-mail over to the authorities and distance himself from whatever is going on. The serious doping operations used by his fellow pros don't need to solicit new customers with e-mail anyway, so it is not like he is damaging the interests of his fellow pros.
Let's assume you have something to hide and then you get that email.

The easiest and safest way, if you suspect you are being set up, is to make it someone else's problem. Report it via an official route to a place that has less direct consequences, make it clear you think it is so obviously bogus that you can't take it seriously, and hope it goes away.

It looks like that isn't what Tondo did. He went to the police. I haven't heard many pros do that. I assume that Tondo isn't the only pro ever solicited by chancers.

But Tondo went and reported it. For once I will let the cynic in me take a back seat, and go with "he wanted to report it, and not just out of paranoia". Maybe he is one of the pros that doesn't like where they are or were, and genuinely wants a cleaner ride.
 
Maybe I wasn't quite on the money when I used the word paranoiac; maybe pessimist would have been better. I wasn't meaning that he reported it solely out of fear, more that he has a general character trait of worrying.

JV's words read to me as very ambivalent.

There's an extent of an honest 'mea culpa' there, but there's also an extension of a soliciting of Tondó's custom in the future (and of course as we know there's a level of hypocrisy since, if he connected the dots thanks to Tondó's 2 years with LA-MSS, how could he not connect the dots with Contador's year with ONCE and two with Liberty Seguros? Heinrich Haussler's four years with Gerolsteiner? Ryder Hesjedal's years with Phonak and USPS? Andreas Klier's seven years with T-Mobile? I mean, I could go on).
 
Feb 21, 2010
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Francois the Postman said:
Let's assume you have something to hide and then you get that email.

The easiest and safest way, if you suspect you are being set up, is to make it someone else's problem. Report it via an official route to a place that has less direct consequences, make it clear you think it is so obviously bogus that you can't take it seriously, and hope it goes away.

It looks like that isn't what Tondo did. He went to the police. I haven't heard many pros do that. I assume that Tondo isn't the only pro ever solicited by chancers.

But Tondo went and reported it. For once I will let the cynic in me take a back seat, and go with "he wanted to report it, and not just out of paranoia". Maybe he is one of the pros that doesn't like where they are or were, and genuinely wants a cleaner ride.
Valid points, and ones worth keeping in mind.

Tondo should be commended for turning in these people. One cannot totally dismiss suspicion that Tondo has ever doped but he does get a gold star for his actions. Don't get too carried away with it but at least he took the kind of action I think most of us would hope he would, or what we would do given the chance. I think that is about all we could ask for.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
There's an extent of an honest 'mea culpa' there, but there's also an extension of a soliciting of Tondó's custom in the future (and of course as we know there's a level of hypocrisy since, if he connected the dots thanks to Tondó's 2 years with LA-MSS, how could he not connect the dots with Contador's year with ONCE and two with Liberty Seguros? Heinrich Haussler's four years with Gerolsteiner? Ryder Hesjedal's years with Phonak and USPS? Andreas Klier's seven years with T-Mobile? I mean, I could go on).
This confused me too, but it could have something to do with his comment about not believing that Tondo could perform as clean, while he perhaps figured that those other guys could perform even without doping?
 
Winterfold said:
I'm curious as to why JV felt the need to make this public pronouncement instead of privately apologizing to Tondo. As was stated earlier it only shows the hypocrisy of his actions in that he was courting Contador while he was rejecting Tondo, while both had histories with teams with tainted histories, which he used as his basis in not allowing Tondo on his teams. He makes no mention of his attempts at luring Contador which is quite relevant in this situation. My guess is that he found Contador less of a risk or maybe he had Contador come in and take all the tests that he mentions they could have done with Tondo to evaluate their natural talent level.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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runninboy said:
wrong it was horses
it started with the headline "LIVESTOCK" which most people feel is cattle but when u read the story it was race horses.
BANG BANG runningboy....set that LIVESTOCK headline straight. :D

From the way things looked on that video linked,,,,,,,,that was not a Livestock doping ring. It had something to do with Human athletes, maybe a few cycling links and a marathon training magazine lying around near the end tables.

Hey I thought Clen did not help with anything except the beef industry?
 
Angliru said:
I'm curious as to why JV felt the need to make this public pronouncement instead of privately apologizing to Tondo. As was stated earlier it only shows the hypocrisy of his actions in that he was courting Contador while he was rejecting Tondo, while both had histories with teams with tainted histories, which he used as his basis in not allowing Tondo on his teams. He makes no mention of his attempts at luring Contador which is quite relevant in this situation. My guess is that he found Contador less of a risk or maybe he had Contador come in and take all the tests that he mentions they could have done with Tondo to evaluate their natural talent level.
When acquiring a pure bred, one likes to know the reputation of the kennel.

A good kennel is well-run, with a top-notch program that can put your mind at ease.

When picking up a stray, you may not have good access to the medical history or know how well the animal was cared for.

A proven competitor from a top-notch kennel has been treated professionally and comes with a top-notch pedigree. These animals are already well trained. There is little downside risk.

Dave.
 
Dec 18, 2009
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It seems to me that JV acted on gut instinct. He maybe right.

If I were solicited by e-mail for PED's , handing the info to the authorities would be a no brainer with no downside. I'd be much more impressed if one of these riders did an undercover expose.
 
May 19, 2010
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Angliru said:
I'm curious as to why JV felt the need to make this public pronouncement instead of privately apologizing to Tondo.
That is what I wonder about too. Why not go over to Tondo and tell him he's been a chicken and avoided him instead of saying to his face that he was suspicious about him?
 
neineinei said:
That is what I wonder about too. Why not go over to Tondo and tell him he's been a chicken and avoided him instead of saying to his face that he was suspicious about him?
Because he's trying to make a wider point about cynics like us, obviously. It's right there in the text.
 
Jul 23, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
There's an extent of an honest 'mea culpa' there, but there's also an extension of a soliciting of Tondó's custom in the future (and of course as we know there's a level of hypocrisy since, if he connected the dots thanks to Tondó's 2 years with LA-MSS, how could he not connect the dots with Contador's year with ONCE and two with Liberty Seguros? Heinrich Haussler's four years with Gerolsteiner? Ryder Hesjedal's years with Phonak and USPS? Andreas Klier's seven years with T-Mobile? I mean, I could go on).
That's what I find so frustrating about JV's article. Tondo was not given a chance due to concerns about his association with a dirty doctor or team and his performance in the Vuelta supported those concerns. Yet JV appeared to be chasing Contador, he of OP, ONCE/LS, he who thrived under the Bruyneel system etc. Those actions are incompatible. You're either in or you're out.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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pedaling squares said:
That's what I find so frustrating about JV's article. Tondo was not given a chance due to concerns about his association with a dirty doctor or team and his performance in the Vuelta supported those concerns. Yet JV appeared to be chasing Contador, he of OP, ONCE/LS, he who thrived under the Bruyneel system etc. Those actions are incompatible. You're either in or you're out.
And he's fired Whitey for a transgression in "team policy" and won't provide the true details.

I wonder what kind of a reference JV will be for Lowe and White as they pursue new opportunities down the road.

Dot connecting.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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neineinei said:
That is what I wonder about too. Why not go over to Tondo and tell him he's been a chicken and avoided him instead of saying to his face that he was suspicious about him?
To me he's doing that and in public as well at the same time making it even better. Doesn't it take more of a man to admit in public? He could also have chosen to not say anything at all - then he hadn't opened himself up to the critique of the community at large for basically doing something quite honourable.

I think he's also telling the fan community that while he's normally frustrated by the way everything goes through the "washer" here, he does maybe understand and accept it better as he can see he's been reacting the same way.
 
JPM London said:
To me he's doing that and in public as well at the same time making it even better. Doesn't it take more of a man to admit in public? He could also have chosen to not say anything at all - then he hadn't opened himself up to the critique of the community at large for basically doing something quite honourable.

I think he's also telling the fan community that while he's normally frustrated by the way everything goes through the "washer" here, he does maybe understand and accept it better as he can see he's been reacting the same way.
That doesn't address the contradiction in the courting of Contador while rejecting Tondo.
 
JPM London said:
I think he's also telling the fan community that while he's normally frustrated by the way everything goes through the "washer" here, he does maybe understand and accept it better as he can see he's been reacting the same way.
I think what irks us is not that he hasn't been understanding the way we react like this - it's that he's been selective about when he wants to react like this. There's plenty of people with associations with shady teams on his team - so why was it different for Tondó?

That's a question only JV can answer for us, really.
 
Colm.Murphy said:
And he's fired Whitey for a transgression in "team policy" and won't provide the true details.

I wonder what kind of a reference JV will be for Lowe and White as they pursue new opportunities down the road.

Dot connecting.
How do you know that the details that were provided aren't the "true" details?
White and Lowe have had ample time to tell their side of the story, that is, if they differ from Vaughters' but as far as I know they haven't said anything of substance to the contrary.
 
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