Doping: the fans fault?

[tifosa]

Is doping the fans fault? According to Verbruggen, it is.

http://www.rue89.com/2009/06/03/argent-et-politique-les-vraies-raisons-du-retour-darmstrong

Armstrong's motive for a comeback? Money and politics of course.

Yes, all this and more from the Ballester & Walsh book: The Dirty Tour

Sorry to say I'm more of a summer fiction type reader...

 

[BigBoat]

Fair enough shot from Walsh... I see he's still following along.

Most of the $ incentive is not amongst the riders but amongst the orgs that run the TDF... ASO makes a lot of dough and so do the UCI. They do not want to run certain testing as to avoid excessive positives and at the same time they are corrupt and favor certain teams with big money, fancy toys and cryptopreservation freezers... Remember when the German TV networks DUMPED the Tour after the big police raid in Madrid? They sure as hell dont want that to happen again ha!

 

[rhubroma]

Fair enough shot from Walsh... I see he's still following along.

Most of the $ incentive is not amongst the riders but amongst the orgs that run the TDF... ASO makes a lot of dough and so do the UCI. They do not want to run certain testing as to avoid excessive positives and at the same time they are corrupt and favor certain teams with big money, fancy toys and cryptopreservation freezers... Remember when the German TV networks DUMPED the Tour after the big police raid in Madrid? They sure as hell dont want that to happen again ha!

And so it boils down to what I've always said, it's inconceivable that any sport can be made cleaner, when the same body which governs it (and thus has a direct financial interest in making the most profit from it) is also the one in charge of organizing the tests. The conflict of interests is the reason why too effective controls can't exist, because they would destroy the public image of the sport and therefore their investments.

It's like what happened at Wall Street during (the still) age of the ideology of deregulation. The same financial managers from the investment banks who stood to make the most profit from a stock market without rules, were the same ones Washington placed in charge of regulating the stock market. And we all know how that situation came to a disastrous conclusion...

 

[Mellow Velo]

Saw the thread name and knew immediately what it was about!
Here's "that bit", in English.

According to Verbruggen, president of the UCI, doping is ‘the fans’ fault’

Finally, the cynicism of the organisers of professional sport is completely summed up in this conversation between **** Pound, the ex-president of AMA, and Hein Verbruggen, the president of the UCI. The exchange took place after the Festina affair and before the birth of AMA. **** Pound tells the story:

‘I said to him, ‘Damn it, Hein, there’s a real problem in your sport. You really must do something about it.’

He retorted, ‘But it’s the fans’ fault.’

I said, ‘I beg your pardon. How is it the fans’ fault?’

He replied, ‘Well, it’s simple. If they accept to watch a Tour de France at 25km an hour, the riders wouldn’t need all that. But because the fans absolutely require the Tour to run at 42km an hour, the riders have to prepare for it.’

I said to him, ‘I hope you’re joking.’ In fact, they were all well aware of it.

So, do we prefer speed to unpredictable racing?

 

[BroDeal]

Verbruggen is an idiot. Next to Pat McQuaid it is hard to tell which is more corrupt.

 

[Animal]

This forum software is ****

Yes, I actually typed asterisks because I knew it would insist on them. It's pathetic really.

 

[Animal]

Oh. and Verbruggen is full of asterisks.

All we want to see is committment and effort. The absolute average speed is totally irrelevant.

 

[memyselfandI]

Fans don't expect certain speeds and same time they do. Racing is winning and others are compared against winners. Now loosers do something to get faster? So pack gets faster and winner needs to be even faster aso as.. I mean etc etc. But that's quite natural as long as things are done legally.

Now things get more complex when you have tainted teams and kids/young boys, who can get better life (compared to what they have at least in eastern europe region) if they do their best in cycling. If they do everything to reach it.

Every single thing.

 

[elapid]

And so it boils down to what I've always said, it's inconceivable that any sport can be made cleaner, when the same body which governs it (and thus has a direct financial interest in making the most profit from it) is also the one in charge of organizing the tests. The conflict of interests is the reason why too effective controls can't exist, because they would destroy the public image of the sport and therefore their investments.

It's like what happened at Wall Street during (the still) age of the ideology of deregulation. The same financial managers from the investment banks who stood to make the most profit from a stock market without rules, were the same ones Washington placed in charge of regulating the stock market. And we all know how that situation came to a disastrous conclusion...

+1. I have been saying this on other posts: the UCI is probably the biggest problem in professional cycling. They have a conflict of interest and their thirst for power, apathy to drugs and drug testing, and inane rules are doing more to hurt the imaging of cycling than any other individual (eg, Boonen), organization (eg, ASO) or problem (eg, doping).

 

[franciep10]

Well why do we watch pro cycling to see the pro's climb, sprint and time trial like most of you guys can only hope to do, would you want to watch something for three weeks, where riders are going up a hill at the same speed as you would, no we wouldn't while I agree Hein is an idiot and doping is not the fan's fault we do have something to do with it, because simply it wouldn't make great tv.

 

[lostintime]

Blame is a game for which there is no conclusion.

Yet . . . we all play it.. . . or have played it.


What choose you?

 

[Animal]

Well why do we watch pro cycling to see the pro's climb, sprint and time trial like most of you guys can only hope to do, would you want to watch something for three weeks, where riders are going up a hill at the same speed as you would, no we wouldn't while I agree Hein is an idiot and doping is not the fan's fault we do have something to do with it, because simply it wouldn't make great tv.

No.

Because if it was at the same speed a spectator could do it, the spectator would be the pro.

The fastest athletes would still be chosen by team managers to contest the race!

It's the pain and effort and committment that makes the treat TV (or roadside viewing), nothing whatsoever to do with what the numbers on some speedo are.

Can you tell the difference on your TV screen between 55kph (doped) and 48kph (clean)?

 

[franciep10]

No.

Because if it was at the same speed a spectator could do it, the spectator would be the pro.

The fastest athletes would still be chosen by team managers to contest the race!

It's the pain and effort and committment that makes the treat TV (or roadside viewing), nothing whatsoever to do with what the numbers on some speedo are.

Can you tell the difference on your TV screen between 55kph (doped) and 48kph (clean)?

I'm not saying it's okay to dope what I'm saying is that as a rider you have your Manager breathing down your back to put in a super human performance so the sponsors can be happy, but your hurting tremendously trying to climb this hill and your director wants you to attack your legs are burning your heart feels like it's going to give out, your DS says if you don't attack you're fired, and then after the stage when your completely numb from swallowing 15 pain killers that you decide that I need something to lessen the pain, so you take something, and that develops into full on doping practices. That all develops because your sponsors want publicity and your director want to keep his job so the riders are sometimes pressured into doping. Unacceptable but that's the dirty business of pro cycling.

 

[Escarabajo]

Oh. and Verbruggen is full of asterisks.

All we want to see is committment and effort. The absolute average speed is totally irrelevant.

Correct. The speed is irrelevant. Look at the 1989 Tour de France the Greg won.For once I have the tendency to think that if the Peloton was dope free the race would be closer towards the end and therefore it would be more unpredictable.
But that's just my assumption.

 

[tifosa]

All we want to see is committment and effort. The absolute average speed is totally irrelevant.

Add to that: ethics and personal integrity.

 

[Angliru]

Well why do we watch pro cycling to see the pro's climb, sprint and time trial like most of you guys can only hope to do, would you want to watch something for three weeks, where riders are going up a hill at the same speed as you would, no we wouldn't while I agree Hein is an idiot and doping is not the fan's fault we do have something to do with it, because simply it wouldn't make great tv.

It isn't the speeds that their traveling because from our vantage point at home we don't know how fast they're going unless the announcers tell us or it's posted in a graphic. I could careless what speeds they're traveling. They are recognized as being at the very top of our sport so to watch the best battle it out on challenging terrain and just in general is all I need to be glued to the tube. The history behind the big events, the classics, the grand tours,
the names from the past, the one's that are making their names in the present, and the youngsters that are challenging the established stars are why I am a fan.

 

[franciep10]

You guys still don't get it the sponsors are who I blame the sponsors pressure the directors, who pressures the rider to constantly attack, which is what the fans want, so the sponsors name can be out there due that pressure the riders often take certain substances so that the can sustain the riding style that everybody wants, the problem is the fans want clean cycling, but want the same riding style that comes from doping.

 

[boalio]

Add to that: ethics and personal integrity.

To be honest, I think you average fan (in all sports, not cycling specific) doesn't really care.

Why is cage fighting more popular in USA than cycling?

 

[boalio]

You guys still don't get it the sponsors are who I blame the sponsors pressure the directors, who pressures the rider to constantly attack, which is what the fans want, so the sponsors name can be out there due that pressure the riders often take certain substances so that the can sustain the riding style that everybody wants, the problem is the fans want clean cycling, but want the same riding style that comes from doping.

I think it goes deeper than this. Because doping is a huge problem in lower level amateur cycling as well. And that has nothing to do with sponsors.

We live in a society that tells us that pharmaceuticals are the answer to all problems. It moves away from the usage of them to alleviate problems, to the situation where we are told it is perfectly acceptable to use them to enhance your life. TV is full of examples of sex enhancers, energy enhancers. Teenage kids are constantly being bombarded with messages that they should use energy drinks to 'get more out of there live'. SO the mindset of using artificial enhancement to 'get an edge' is already there. So doping isnt an argument around whether i should enhance or not, its an argument around should i chose banned enhancements over non banned enhancements. Which is a much smaller logical step.

 

[hfer07]

Is doping the fans fault? According to Verbruggen, it is.

http://www.rue89.com/2009/06/03/argent-et-politique-les-vraies-raisons-du-retour-darmstrong

Armstrong's motive for a comeback? Money and politics of course.

Yes, all this and more from the Ballester & Walsh book: The Dirty Tour

Sorry to say I'm more of a summer fiction type reader...

How about blaming the Bicycles for getting lighter & more aerodynamic?

"THE ORGANIZERS" know that a faster stage that fits & make easier all the "logistics" & specially TV BROADCASTING to generate all the money in advertising are the real reasons behind their apathy to the changes in speed & timing in competition.....doping happens to be the "fuel" to keep the machinery moving....

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Hein is a corrupt idiot of mammoth proportions. I'd say Hein, the the UCI are probably the biggest problem cycling fans face today. They're like the Nixon administration, only able to stay in power term after term. Imagine it's 1976 and President Nixon has just appointed Spiro Agnew as the next President. That's what we have now with Hein and Pat McQuaid.

Fan's needing to watch speed has absolutely nothing to do with doping. Nothing. As Animal said, Can you tell the difference on your TV screen between 55kph (doped) and 48kph (clean). No, I can't. No one can.

As to attacking, long before we had EPO, and O2 blood boosters we saw plenty of attacking, often from way out from the finish that would succeed. Anyone remember the way Hinault rode? Today, almost every break is chased down, and all mountains are contested in the last 5km (race radio is the reason for this).

I think it goes deeper than this. Because doping is a huge problem in lower level amateur cycling as well. And that has nothing to do with sponsors. We live in a society that tells us that pharmaceuticals are the answer to all problems.

Excellent post Boalio. It's disturbing the amount of people in society (in the US anyway) on either pain medication or anti-depressants. And even more disturbing is that we give no sympathy to anyone who asks for help otherwise. We tell them to tough it out, stop sucking off the system and other people's taxes, get a job, be accountable for yourself, etc.

 

[mr. tibbs]

Oh. and Verbruggen is full of asterisks.

All we want to see is committment and effort. The absolute average speed is totally irrelevant.

Lol nicely done, Animal.

 

[tifosa]

To be honest, I think you average fan (in all sports, not cycling specific) doesn't really care.

Sure, ban all rules in all sports, and the most ruthless wins? That's what the average fan wants? Another Landess? Another Bonds? Come on, even the average fan deserves better than that!

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not saying it's okay to dope what I'm saying is that as a rider you have your Manager breathing down your back to put in a super human performance so the sponsors can be happy, but your hurting tremendously trying to climb this hill and your director wants you to attack your legs are burning your heart feels like it's going to give out, your DS says if you don't attack you're fired, and then after the stage when your completely numb from swallowing 15 pain killers that you decide that I need something to lessen the pain, so you take something, and that develops into full on doping practices. That all develops because your sponsors want publicity and your director want to keep his job so the riders are sometimes pressured into doping. Unacceptable but that's the dirty business of pro cycling.

And you have wonderfully summed up why ethical behavior doesn't (can't) exist in a world governed by the logic of the markets. And it makes all the people who refuse or won't see it that way naive.

Whenever big money gets involved with anything, the first culture to be abandoned is an ethical one. Whereas nothing is pure, purity doesn't exist. Purity is for the puritans, not for those involved in big business like pro sport. It all about money, period.

 

[RhodriM]

Hein is a corrupt idiot of mammoth proportions. I'd say Hein, the the UCI are probably the biggest problem cycling fans face today. They're like the Nixon administration, only able to stay in power term after term. Imagine it's 1976 and President Nixon has just appointed Spiro Agnew as the next President. That's what we have now with Hein and Pat McQuaid.

Fan's needing to watch speed has absolutely nothing to do with doping. Nothing. As Animal said, Can you tell the difference on your TV screen between 55kph (doped) and 48kph (clean). No, I can't. No one can.

As to attacking, long before we had EPO, and O2 blood boosters we saw plenty of attacking, often from way out from the finish that would succeed. Anyone remember the way Hinault rode? Today, almost every break is chased down, and all mountains are contested in the last 5km (race radio is the reason for this).

I often get the impression that then it was more common for riders to have off-days, which were the perfect time for others to attack?

Having said that, in recent years many of the most memorable solo attacks have seemingly been down to doping.