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Doping with "water"?

Mar 16, 2009
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Does this make any sense? or is it just gluten free, high cadence, I sleep in a tent hyperbole?

"The preparation and acclimation component, especially the dehydration protocol, saw the athletes’ red blood cell concentration rise by up to 4%, and total plasma volume to increase by ~7%. This is a natural ergogenic aid akin to erythropoietin supplementation. There was also a decrease in exercising heart rate, an increase in work capacity and less total sweat loss during the race."

Cutting Edge Hydration Strategies
 
Jun 19, 2009
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krebs303 said:
Does this make any sense? or is it just gluten free, high cadence, I sleep in a tent hyperbole?

"The preparation and acclimation component, especially the dehydration protocol, saw the athletes’ red blood cell concentration rise by up to 4%, and total plasma volume to increase by ~7%. This is a natural ergogenic aid akin to erythropoietin supplementation. There was also a decrease in exercising heart rate, an increase in work capacity and less total sweat loss during the race."

Cutting Edge Hydration Strategies

Yes. Then your blood pressure drops and you pass out.
 
May 13, 2009
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krebs303 said:
Does this make any sense? or is it just gluten free, high cadence, I sleep in a tent hyperbole?

"The preparation and acclimation component, especially the dehydration protocol, saw the athletes’ red blood cell concentration rise by up to 4%, and total plasma volume to increase by ~7%. This is a natural ergogenic aid akin to erythropoietin supplementation. There was also a decrease in exercising heart rate, an increase in work capacity and less total sweat loss during the race."

Cutting Edge Hydration Strategies

If the RBC concentrations rises by 4% and plasma volume by 7%, wouldn't that mean that total HB mass should rise by what, 11%? There's only one way to do it: inject a pint of packed cells. Mystery solved.
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Doping with Water - Not really but enhanced water

So let me get this straight - I saw the same article and have the same question. Is the respondent saying that with proper hydration stategies and legal supplement/additives, that blood volume etc improves so the athelete can perform better? However it could also be seen mistakenly as using EPO?

If this is true - is it then also a possibility that the author of the artlcle who implied that Lance was doping either overlooked or was totally unaware of this approach to legal hydation and thermoregulation stratagies that allow for performance retention over a long stage race? Seems as though an athlete or team with the financial resources can indeed race and win cleanly, but they must rely on good clean science. It would also indicate that those with only a knowledge of blood chemistry and not the whole body and interactions between hydration, electrolytes etc., might indeed mistakenly read an increase in blood volume as doping. Is this true?

In conclusion - there is "science" and then there is complete science, let us hope that the WADA, AFLD, UCI, etc all opt for complete, well informed and accurate science as they play so easily and so often with peoples lives and livelihoods. Similarly these agencies need to continually improve the science, as they to some point seem to be attempting, so there is no doubt when a cheater is caught and no room to wrangle their way out of it on technicalities.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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On a side note, it's interesting to see how human bodies are gradually turning into objects to be utilized, improved, altered, tweaked and finally, I wouldn't be surprised, discarded. These are 'living bodies' not some 'corpses' or parts of it used in medical science. Bodies, soulless, merely constituing a set of data, variables, and interdependent dynamics between identified and isolated values.

It looks almost as if they are treated as Formula one vehicles, with slight adaptations, they can become a fraction of a second faster, lighter, more competitive, more resistant etc.

Speaking of dehumanization....
 
Jun 9, 2009
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The article contained some pretty interesting sciance as well as some misrepresented pseudo-science.

Hematocrit values are represented as ratios. In order to determine hematocrit values, blood is drawn from a person and placed in a centrifuge. The spinning of the centrifuge causes the dense particles in the blood (red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets) to gather at the bottom of the tube while the plasma remains at the top of the tube.

The percentage of test tube composed of formed elements is the hematocrit value. Thus, in order to increase the ratio one can either increase the number of formed elements in the blood (EPO, doping) or decrease the amount of plasma (dehydration).

Blood plasma is over 90% water. As a person sweats and loses water volume, blood plasma volume decreases. As plasma volume decreases, the ratio of fomed elements in the blood to plasma volume increases. An elevated hematocrit secondary to dehydration is not an indicator of increased capacity for the blood to carry oxygen.
 
Jul 14, 2009
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bala just curious where you stand on Brian Frasure,he was also tied up in court with feds telling him he could race and another telling NFW. Are carbon legs a PED? The D this time being device. The story is fantastic real life meets the space age, In my view old ethics.The person(s) who developed EPO/CERA did it for the most noble of causes,funny how good technology put into a twisted mind can turn out so different. The guys who are thinking up ways to increase water in your plasma are some F'ed people for sure.
 
Jun 29, 2009
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Don't buy what this article is saying at all. The fact that they start off by saying 37-40 degrees represents a normal temperature range is a bad sign. I've had a temperature of 40 degrees, and believe me it feels like death lol. If that's homeostasis, I'll pass thanks.
 
May 13, 2009
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David Suro said:
The article contained some pretty interesting sciance as well as some misrepresented pseudo-science.

Hematocrit values are represented as ratios. In order to determine hematocrit values, blood is drawn from a person and placed in a centrifuge. The spinning of the centrifuge causes the dense particles in the blood (red blood cells, white blood cells, and platelets) to gather at the bottom of the tube while the plasma remains at the top of the tube.

The percentage of test tube composed of formed elements is the hematocrit value. Thus, in order to increase the ratio one can either increase the number of formed elements in the blood (EPO, doping) or decrease the amount of plasma (dehydration).

Blood plasma is over 90% water. As a person sweats and loses water volume, blood plasma volume decreases. As plasma volume decreases, the ratio of fomed elements in the blood to plasma volume increases. An elevated hematocrit secondary to dehydration is not an indicator of increased capacity for the blood to carry oxygen.

I'm in particular interested how those clowns measured plasma volume and its increase by 7%. No method is given. I think this is pure and utter spin.

ETA: we just went over that in the 'total Hb mass' thread. Lot's of ideas to measure plasma volume and/or total Hb mass. CO re-breathing, radioisotope marking etc. Not a word about it here. It's a non-trivial problem, otherwise we would already have more effective anti-doping measures.
 
Aug 19, 2009
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Bala Verde said:
On a side note, it's interesting to see how human bodies are gradually turning into objects to be utilized, improved, altered, tweaked and finally, I wouldn't be surprised, discarded. These are 'living bodies' not some 'corpses' or parts of it used in medical science. Bodies, soulless, merely constituing a set of data, variables, and interdependent dynamics between identified and isolated values.

It looks almost as if they are treated as Formula one vehicles, with slight adaptations, they can become a fraction of a second faster, lighter, more competitive, more resistant etc.

Speaking of dehumanization....

2010 Tour de France podium
1. Darth Vader
2. The Borg
3. The Terminator
 
Mar 10, 2009
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fatandfast said:
bala just curious where you stand on Brian Frasure,he was also tied up in court with feds telling him he could race and another telling NFW. Are carbon legs a PED? The D this time being device. The story is fantastic real life meets the space age, In my view old ethics.The person(s) who developed EPO/CERA did it for the most noble of causes,funny how good technology put into a twisted mind can turn out so different. The guys who are thinking up ways to increase water in your plasma are some F'ed people for sure.

A couple of days/weeks ago we had a, rather unpleasantly named, thread about South African gold medalist 800m Ms. Semenya. I believe I emphasised the role identities play, and how an unquestioned structure commands persons to occupy a hierarchical place in that order, which in effect gives meaning to whole and parts alike as well as preserving the status quo.

In that case, it involved a gender question, man/woman, although for illustrative reasons I also refered to transexualism and the 'blade runner' from South Africa.

In this case I would refer you to Donna Haraway as well as 'cyborg theory' (Cyborg Manifesto), which deals with 'naturally' human (esp. male/female distinctions), as opposed to animal and mechanical/machinal identities.

I find these occurences of 'destabilization' - challenging certain current conventions at its core - very intriguing.

Sorry to have taken this off topic.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Cobblestones said:
I'm in particular interested how those clowns measured plasma volume and its increase by 7%. No method is given.

The article is frustrating thin on reliable detail. Surely the author has muddled his explanation. A 7% increase in plasma volume with dehydration is silly, he's very unclear on which part of the preparation:eek:, acclimation, dehydration process each result is attributed to. Sequentially, a 4% increase in red cell volume followed by a 7% increase in plasma volume due to a forced dehydration/hydration cycle is not that surprising...is it? Or does he mean 4% RBC volume increase; he talks about RBC volume in the Solution and Summary sections...now 4% increase in RBC volume would be an 'interesting' result!

I found something which suggests fooling with hydration might lead to increased RBCs in mice http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121604596/abstract. Couldn't find anything on this "natural ergogenic aid akin to erythropoietin supplementation" for humans though. Nothing in the reference list form the pezcyclingnews article either...
 
May 13, 2009
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I Watch Cycling In July said:
The article is frustrating thin on reliable detail. Surely the author has muddled his explanation. A 7% increase in plasma volume with dehydration is silly, he's very unclear on which part of the preparation:eek:, acclimation, dehydration process each result is attributed to. Sequentially, a 4% increase in red cell volume followed by a 7% increase in plasma volume due to a forced dehydration/hydration cycle is not that surprising...is it? Or does he mean 4% RBC volume increase; he talks about RBC volume in the Solution and Summary sections...now 4% increase in RBC volume would be an 'interesting' result!

I found something which suggests fooling with hydration might lead to increased RBCs in mice http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121604596/abstract. Couldn't find anything on this "natural ergogenic aid akin to erythropoietin supplementation" for humans though. Nothing in the reference list form the pezcyclingnews article either...

Thank you for the post. It brings the discussion back on topic again. This write-up is extremely sloppy at best (as in the author not having the faintest clue what he's writing about) or intentionally misleading. With the information given, I put it squarely in the 'high cadence', 'gluten-free diet', 'Tommy D is quarter inuit', 'weighing food', 'training rides on X mas' spin for the gullible masses to rationalize performance gains. The piece is neither 'science' nor 'complete science'. Anyway, some people here wouldn't know science if it poked them in their anal canal with a 10 ft pole.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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One study suggests that using a sauna post training for a period of 3 weeks increased blood plasma by 7%, though not included in the references could have been mentioned in the seminar and then misunderstood by the author. Who may then have thought that this was an instantaneous effect. As we know dehydration increases hematocrit, so with a small misunderstanding as to what happened when I can see how this mistake occured.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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karlboss said:
One study suggests that using a sauna post training for a period of 3 weeks increased blood plasma by 7%, though not included in the references could have been mentioned in the seminar and then misunderstood by the author. Who may then have thought that this was an instantaneous effect. As we know dehydration increases hematocrit, so with a small misunderstanding as to what happened when I can see how this mistake occured.

Reading between the lines, the plasma changes rather than the 'RBC volume increase' look like the main topic of the talk. Could elevated plasma ward off dehydration longer? Could ph buffering increase the rate of fluid transfer from the gut to the bloodstream? If so, might it help?

I suspect kerbs303 was hoping some of the more technically minded posters would give the ideas in the article the 'smell test' and then communicate an opinion in common English. Apart from seeing that the author of the article didn't understand the science, (and giving the idea of a big increase in RBC a smell test FAIL), I can't address any of the specific questions.....any views?
 

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