Good ol' Bjarne...

[JMBeaushrimp]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-says-many-young-riders-are-too-spoiled

From the CN article, "Youngster not willing to make the necessary sacrifices, Dane claims

Having a strong will “is the greatest talent you can have,” according to Bjarne Riis, and it is exactly what is missing in so many young riders today, he said."


Strong will? You wanna see strong will? I can't find one kid out there who is willing to race with a hematocrit over 58%! What kind of weak little nancy-boys is this sport producing nowadays?

Back in my day, I jacked my HC up so high I had to sleep on a stationary bike and pay a poor Morrocan imigrant to prod me with a stick every hour just so I could keep my heart moving the jelly I had turned my blood into...

I tell ya, kids these days...

 

[D-Queued]

And to think I always had so much hope for Bjarne after he came clean.

Just more Omerta... time for them all to be taken down. You can smell the stench from here.

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

Interpreting everything Riis says in light of his past doping practices gets a bit old.

Fun fact: Ugrumov had a higher hematocrit than Riis.

 

[Berzin]

Interpreting everything Riis says in light of his past doping practices gets a bit old.

I could not agree more.

Fun fact: Ugrumov had a higher hematocrit than Riis.

So did quite a lot of other riders. But Riis for some reason gets labeled as Mr. 60%.

 

[robow7]

So did quite a lot of other riders. But Riis for some reason gets labeled as Mr. 60%.

A lot of riders didn't win the TDF

 

[bobbins]

He's right though.

 

[sniper]

Quote: A lot of riders didn't win the TDF

One explanation might be that not everybody was on a 60% hematocrit.

Berzin states otherwise, but I think most weren't going much over 50%, with a few exceptions, including Riis and apparently Ugrumov.

 

[roundabout]

Interpreting everything Riis says in light of his past doping practices gets a bit old.

Fun fact: Ugrumov had a higher hematocrit than Riis.

Should we then interpret it as words of a team manager that had to institute a questionable internal testing program to improve the reputation of his team?

And secondly, Ugrumov isn't preaching about "strong will".

 

[Berzin]

Quote: A lot of riders didn't win the TDF

One explanation might be that not everybody was on a 60% hematocrit.

Riis' highest hematocrit reading whe he was riding was 56%. There were a few riders who had higher readings than this (Ugromov and Chiappucci come to mind) but a high hematocrit isn't the only harbinger of grand tour success.

Berzin states otherwise, but I think most weren't going much over 50%, with a few exceptions, including Riis and apparently Ugrumov.

I never stated otherwise. Where did you read this? Plenty of cats were crossing the mid-50% level. Maybe not by much, but everyone was usually in the same ballpark.

This had to stop in 1997 due to the 50% cut-off, but that only meant riders were shooting for the magic 49.9%, like Paolo Salvodelli at the 1999 Giro D'Italia.

 

[sniper]

I never stated otherwise. Where did you read this? Plenty of cats were crossing the mid-50% level. Maybe not by much, but everyone was usually in the same ballpark.

This had to stop in 1997 due to the 50% cut-off, but that only meant riders were shooting for the magic 49.9%, like Paolo Salvodelli at the 1999 Giro D'Italia.

You'Re right. I slightly misinterpreted what you said earlier on in the thread in reply to hrotha.
My bad.

The curiosity of a layman: Where did you get all these rather exact data on riders' hematocrit values of that period? Was that made public at a certain point?

 

[Suedehead]

This had to stop in 1997 due to the 50% cut-off, but that only meant riders were shooting for the magic 49.9%, like Paolo Salvodelli at the 1999 Giro D'Italia.

If you believe the book "The death of Pantani" they were still shooting above 50 after 97. The limiter was how to get your blood value below 50 quick enough if the vampires showed up.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Riis' highest hematocrit reading whe he was riding was 56%. There were a few riders who had higher readings than this (Ugromov and Chiappucci come to mind) but a high hematocrit isn't the only harbinger of grand tour success.




I never stated otherwise. Where did you read this? Plenty of cats were crossing the mid-50% level. Maybe not by much, but everyone was usually in the same ballpark.

This had to stop in 1997 due to the 50% cut-off, but that only meant riders were shooting for the magic 49.9%, like Paolo Salvodelli at the 1999 Giro D'Italia.

Jeff d'Hont said in this article that Riis once had a HCT of 64%!

Also they only shot for 49.9% if they were to submit for a blood test, which were nearly always during competition, they had sufficent time to dilute their blood by about 5 points - so they would start above 50%.

 

[BotanyBay]

If you believe the book "The death of Pantani" they were still shooting above 50 after 97. The limiter was how to get your blood value below 50 quick enough if the vampires showed up.

Hence the team busses. Filled with IV setups and bags of saline. Saline gets the crit count down and dillutes the EPO. Riders hopped-off the bike, escorted immediately onto the team bus and they vanish until possibly called for doping control.

A great anti-doping tactic would be to have a post-stage waiting area, filled with refreshments and places to freshen-up and wipe-off, where all riders must stay until doping control names are announced. Selected riders are ten immediately brought to give samples

 

[la.margna]

could somebody please post an all-time top 10 hematocrit level list of cyclists?

thanks a lot!

 

[hfer07]

setting aside the "dope" part of to which Riis is tainted with- I believe he's a 100% right on how youngster are nowadays so spoiled with money before they can comprehend first hand the true value of "earning it" with hard work.

the rest is 60% BS

 

[D-Queued]

setting aside the "dope" part of to which Riis is tainted with- I believe he's a 100% right on how youngster are nowadays so spoiled with money before they can comprehend first hand the true value of "earning it" with hard work.

the rest is 60% BS

And the first part is 40% intimidation about 'not getting with the program'.

There are plenty of talented cyclists that would love a shot at a Pro Tour team. The only head cases around appear to be people like Riccardo Ricco who have no problem getting with the program. Or, like Valv.piti who thinks the authorities are somehow mistaken.

Unless, of course, you are talking about head cases like Simeoni, Mancebo, Decanio and now Landis of course.

In retrospect, Ullrich was all class. Especially with his parting comment about those who don't know what is going on.

Dave.

 

[Anonymous]

Old people always think their generation was harder working and more respectful.

 

[Christian]

Old people always think their generation was harder working and more respectful.

It goes all the way back to Socrates actually, and probably even further

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Interpreting everything Riis says in light of his past doping practices gets a bit old.

Fun fact: Ugrumov had a higher hematocrit than Riis.

Yeah, because the role of past doping should be expunged from everyone's memory.

It's not my role to ensure he's given carte blanche, and it's not my role to ensure his past haunts him. It just happens to be a historical fact that needs to be remembered, especially in his role as a PT team DS. Doping in cycling needs to be attacked via the dirty managers, DSs, Drs, Physiologists, etc.

NOT filtering Riis's comments through the fact that he was a dirty rider is a disservice to the fight against doping in cycling.

The OP was more of a smart-*ssed approach to make a joke, anyway...

 

[hrotha]

Huge *** strawman right there. I didn't say we should forget about Riis' doping. It's relevant when we're talking about Riis' career and performance, or about the history of doping, including doping in CSC/Saxo Bank. It's not relevant if Riis publishes a collection of Christmas tales for children.

As for the "riding above 50% thing", according to Jaksche Telekom apparently made them ride under 50% and they'd freak out if anyone was too close to that cap. Arguably post-Festina Telekom didn't seem to have felt too at ease with the system, they were pretty scared of being caught.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Huge *** strawman right there. I didn't say we should forget about Riis' doping. It's relevant when we're talking about Riis' career and performance, or about the history of doping, including doping in CSC/Saxo Bank. It's not relevant if Riis publishes a collection of Christmas tales for children.

Interpreting everything posters say, that you deem irrelevant, as a 'strawman' gets a little old as well...

 

[oldschoolnik]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riis-says-many-young-riders-are-too-spoiled

From the CN article, "Youngster not willing to make the necessary sacrifices, Dane claims

Having a strong will “is the greatest talent you can have,” according to Bjarne Riis, and it is exactly what is missing in so many young riders today, he said."


Strong will? You wanna see strong will? I can't find one kid out there who is willing to race with a hematocrit over 58%! What kind of weak little nancy-boys is this sport producing nowadays?

Back in my day, I jacked my HC up so high I had to sleep on a stationary bike and pay a poor Morrocan imigrant to prod me with a stick every hour just so I could keep my heart moving the jelly I had turned my blood into...

I tell ya, kids these days...

LOL - that was good.

 

[hrotha]

"Yeah, because the role of past doping should be expunged from everyone's memory."

How was that not a strawman?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

"Yeah, because the role of past doping should be expunged from everyone's memory."

How was that not a strawman?

That's sarcasm. I'm not even sure what a 'strawman' is, I just hear it getting thrown around constantly in this forum. What the h*ll is a 'strawman'? I mean apart from the things used for scaring crows away and wandering around looking for their brains...

 

[Magnus]

Riis' highest hematocrit reading whe he was riding was 56%. There were a few riders who had higher readings than this (Ugromov and Chiappucci come to mind) but a high hematocrit isn't the only harbinger of grand tour success.

Do you have a source for the 56%?

In his biography he writes he never recorded more than 54%.