hard to fault dopers

[les95035]

I used to despise the riders who were caught using PED's, and I used to think LA raced clean, but now I am pragmatic about it. If you race for a pro team and if you are a 1st tier rider, you have to take PED's if you want to be competitive and keep your job. I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era, everyone after them had 2 choices since there was no way to detect and catch the cheats, they either raced clean at a disadvantage or they leveled the field.

If I were the UCI, I would issue a blanket amnesty for all riders who come forward and admit what they had done and how they did it, and maybe naming others. no penalty, no forfeiting results. The deadline to come forward is 12/31/10.

then the UCI instates a lifetime ban for first offenses, including those riders who are named by other riders and did not accept the amnesty. No CAS appeals either. in addition, all contracts include salary reimbursement if caught using PED's.

It's clear you cannot catch the riders using PED's, so you have to give riders a reason to stop, or not to start, they have to believe no one is using PED's. you have to re-set the clock and start from zero.

 

[online-rider]

I used to despise the riders who were caught using PED's, and I used to think LA raced clean, but now I am pragmatic about it. If you race for a pro team and if you are a 1st tier rider, you have to take PED's if you want to be competitive and keep your job. I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era, everyone after them had 2 choices since there was no way to detect and catch the cheats, they either raced clean at a disadvantage or they leveled the field.

If I were the UCI, I would issue a blanket amnesty for all riders who come forward and admit what they had done and how they did it, and maybe naming others. no penalty, no forfeiting results. The deadline to come forward is 12/31/10.

then the UCI instates a lifetime ban for first offenses, including those riders who are named by other riders and did not accept the amnesty. No CAS appeals either. in addition, all contracts include salary reimbursement if caught using PED's.

It's clear you cannot catch the riders using PED's, so you have to give riders a reason to stop, or not to start, they have to believe no one is using PED's. you have to re-set the clock and start from zero.

But then you'll have the situation of the odd innocent rider copping a lifetime ban because they overdid the morning coffee and it threw their Haematocrit Value over, or who unwittingly took some saddlesore ointment which showed up probenincid in their blood or something like that - I don't know exactly, I'm not very well informed.
But thats the only problem with your idea. Sooner or later an innocent athlete will get slammed with a lifetime ban for an innocent mistake.

 

[callac]

I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era

What is the "PED era"... Then you can blame guys like Maurice Garin and Lucien Petit-Breton probably.

If you mean the beginning of the EPO era, yep, I can agree on putting a lot of blame on the first riders using it (or at least, the firsts who had it working so well that they had to know they weren't at their place and it wasn't their natural talent speaking at all anymore... ).

But I'd put even more blame on the doctors who introduce EPO and co. into cycling.

And then I'd put the biggest part of the blame on UCI, who clearly knew and at first probably didn't do enough about it in order to avoid scandal, then went on to simply condone it, and then became the biggest part of the problem.

 

[The Hitch]

But then you'll have the situation of the odd innocent rider copping a lifetime ban because they overdid the morning coffee and it threw their Haematocrit Value over, or who unwittingly took some saddlesore ointment which showed up probenincid in their blood or something like that - I don't know exactly, I'm not very well informed.
But thats the only problem with your idea. Sooner or later an innocent athlete will get slammed with a lifetime ban for an innocent mistake.

Has anyone (recently anyway) been banned for 2 years because they over did their cofee?

All of the ones i can think of where caught up in operation puerto, or tested positive for substances. Valverde who was guilty beyond doubt still managed to play it out for years.

I think if someone just had a slightly higher hematocrit they wouldnt perhaps be given the lifetime ban

 

[ThaiPanda]

But then you'll have the situation of the odd innocent rider copping a lifetime ban because they overdid the morning coffee and it threw their Haematocrit Value over, or who unwittingly took some saddlesore ointment which showed up probenincid in their blood or something like that - I don't know exactly, I'm not very well informed.
But thats the only problem with your idea. Sooner or later an innocent athlete will get slammed with a lifetime ban for an innocent mistake.

Maybe you should put the last bolded part first in your post, then hit "submit reply" without typing anything else.

LES - I kinda like the idea.

 

[sars1981]

To some extent I agree. I am not a cyclist but if I was I imagine there would come a point where I would either have to decide to dope of look for another career. Either of these are valid choices. Especially when you consider that taking the high road would be sacrificing big $$$. Home many of us would take the puritanical route when its a choice between bland obscurity on one hand and on the other dollars and glory?

 

[online-rider]

Maybe you should put the last bolded part first in your post, then hit "submit reply" without typing anything else.

LES - I kinda like the idea.

Well I'm glad you're so easily amused ThaiPanda. But seriousley, maybe The Hitch is right and no riders have been caught out lately but I remember back in 2002 Gilberto Simoni claimed to have contracted some cocaine out of his grandmothers lollie bag when she came back from a Colombian holiday.
Obviously that was a **** and bull story and he was high on PED's. But what's to say that these things don't really happen and a rider could fail a drugs test due to the unintended effects of one of the pharmacopia of legal drugs his team are plumbing him with?? Remenber when Vaughters got kicked out of the 2003[?] Tour de France for putting some Savlon on his wasp-sting? Well imagine if it came up in a retroactive test and he couldn't remember what the product was called cos he kept it in an unmarked pottle or something......
You couldn't allow a situation where athletes are losing their whole careers over little mistakes like that.

 

[nia O'Malley]

So you hated doping when you thought LA was clean........... then decided it was OK as soon as you surmised he wasn't?


Nice double standards.

 

[sartain]

I used to despise the riders who were caught using PED's, and I used to think LA raced clean, but now I am pragmatic about it. If you race for a pro team and if you are a 1st tier rider, you have to take PED's if you want to be competitive and keep your job. I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era, everyone after them had 2 choices since there was no way to detect and catch the cheats, they either raced clean at a disadvantage or they leveled the field.

If I were the UCI, I would issue a blanket amnesty for all riders who come forward and admit what they had done and how they did it, and maybe naming others. no penalty, no forfeiting results. The deadline to come forward is 12/31/10.

then the UCI instates a lifetime ban for first offenses, including those riders who are named by other riders and did not accept the amnesty. No CAS appeals either. in addition, all contracts include salary reimbursement if caught using PED's.

It's clear you cannot catch the riders using PED's, so you have to give riders a reason to stop, or not to start, they have to believe no one is using PED's. you have to re-set the clock and start from zero.

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I would love to sell you.

 

[smaryka]

I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era, everyone after them had 2 choices since there was no way to detect and catch the cheats, they either raced clean at a disadvantage or they leveled the field.

Hmm, there was an opportunity for this after Festina but no, doping just got worse and worse. Wonder who that "very first rider" was, the one who took a sport on the brink of being cleaned up and made it dirtier than ever? Oh yeah, the guy you considered a hero when you thought he was clean but now that you know he's a doper you're more pragmatic* about him.

* i.e. no longer blind, just plain biased

 

[forty four]

they have been doping since there were bike races this will continue the only thing that changes is the drugs and the tests.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Well I'm glad you're so easily amused ThaiPanda. But seriousley, maybe The Hitch is right and no riders have been caught out lately but I remember back in 2002 Gilberto Simoni claimed to have contracted some cocaine out of his grandmothers lollie bag when she came back from a Colombian holiday.
Obviously that was a **** and bull story and he was high on PED's. But what's to say that these things don't really happen and a rider could fail a drugs test due to the unintended effects of one of the pharmacopia of legal drugs his team are plumbing him with?? Remenber when Vaughters got kicked out of the 2003[?] Tour de France for putting some Savlon on his wasp-sting? Well imagine if it came up in a retroactive test and he couldn't remember what the product was called cos he kept it in an unmarked pottle or something......
You couldn't allow a situation where athletes are losing their whole careers over little mistakes like that.

You've re-written history to match your point. That's a big no-no.

Vaughters dropped out of the Tour because he had been stung by a wasp and did NOT take the medicine necessary, for fear of a positive test.

That point in itself seems highly ridiculous, as riders can get medically necessary treatment, as Vaughters eye was swollen totally shut, and not fear a positive test. The whole of the scenario did not exactly make sense.

Regarding athletes losing their careers over mistakes, I am simply reminded of the fact that the ADA's simply cannot catch those who know how to beat the tests. They are behind the curve, and rarely get a big name. The CERA test was the first time the athletes "thought" they were in the clear.

As long as HGH, EPO and the medicines that work cannot truly be detected when used in their current techniques, athletes will use them.

 

[BikeCentric]

I think a lifetime ban on a rider is a bit too harsh and I say that as someone who's very anti-PED. There are going to be cases of false positives and riders being doped by their teams without their knowledge, etc., and I do think it would really suck for someone to get a lifetime ban from the sport without really deserving it.

So I agree with the main point, I am sympathetic to a lot of the riders plight because I get the feeling that a lot of them don't want to take PED's but think or know they have to in order to be a pro.

Anyway, not to exonerate the riders from the responsibility of their individual choice to dope, but I do think the bigger part of the problem is the facilitators of doping within the sport. These are the Doctors hired to supervise doping progams, the needle-jockey soigneurs hired to give injections, team managers and DS's that require riders to dope to make the roster for the big races, a compliant UCI that looks the other way, etc. etc.

I see the riders as the replaceable cogs in this system; they are the small targets even though they are the most visible. The riders are basically treated like human race dogs.

 

[Anonymous]

I used to despise the riders who were caught using PED's, and I used to think LA raced clean, but now I am pragmatic about it. If you race for a pro team and if you are a 1st tier rider, you have to take PED's if you want to be competitive and keep your job. I only blame the very first riders who began the PED era, everyone after them had 2 choices since there was no way to detect and catch the cheats, they either raced clean at a disadvantage or they leveled the field.

If I were the UCI, I would issue a blanket amnesty for all riders who come forward and admit what they had done and how they did it, and maybe naming others. no penalty, no forfeiting results. The deadline to come forward is 12/31/10.

then the UCI instates a lifetime ban for first offenses, including those riders who are named by other riders and did not accept the amnesty. No CAS appeals either. in addition, all contracts include salary reimbursement if caught using PED's.

It's clear you cannot catch the riders using PED's, so you have to give riders a reason to stop, or not to start, they have to believe no one is using PED's. you have to re-set the clock and start from zero.

The French are to blame and only the French. Just ask the FrenchFry!

 

[les95035]

So you hated doping when you thought LA was clean........... then decided it was OK as soon as you surmised he wasn't?


Nice double standards.

just what makes you think that I changed my mind? I still don't like doping, it's not OK, but now I understand riders have to do it, rather than chose to do it, that's why i used the word "pragmatic", I see LA get tested over and over, and no positives, then I read how easy it is to defeat tests, so it's clear testing will not end doping. You have to make riders and teams chose to stop.

I just wonder if there was an amnesty, with lots of big names involved would sponsors flee the sport.

 

[les95035]

I think a lifetime ban on a rider is a bit too harsh and I say that as someone who's very anti-PED. There are going to be cases of false positives and riders being doped by their teams without their knowledge, etc., and I do think it would really suck for someone to get a lifetime ban from the sport without really deserving it.

So I agree with the main point, I am sympathetic to a lot of the riders plight because I get the feeling that a lot of them don't want to take PED's but think or know they have to in order to be a pro.

Anyway, not to exonerate the riders from the responsibility of their individual choice to dope, but I do think the bigger part of the problem is the facilitators of doping within the sport. These are the Doctors hired to supervise doping progams, the needle-jockey soigneurs hired to give injections, team managers and DS's that require riders to dope to make the roster for the big races, a compliant UCI that looks the other way, etc. etc.

I see the riders as the replaceable cogs in this system; they are the small targets even though they are the most visible. The riders are basically treated like human race dogs.

team managements should be subject to lifetime bans too

 

[ThaiPanda]

Well I'm glad you're so easily amused ThaiPanda. But seriousley, maybe The Hitch is right and no riders have been caught out lately but I remember back in 2002 Gilberto Simoni claimed to have contracted some cocaine out of his grandmothers lollie bag when she came back from a Colombian holiday.
Obviously that was a **** and bull story and he was high on PED's. But what's to say that these things don't really happen and a rider could fail a drugs test due to the unintended effects of one of the pharmacopia of legal drugs his team are plumbing him with?? Remenber when Vaughters got kicked out of the 2003[?] Tour de France for putting some Savlon on his wasp-sting? Well imagine if it came up in a retroactive test and he couldn't remember what the product was called cos he kept it in an unmarked pottle or something......
You couldn't allow a situation where athletes are losing their whole careers over little mistakes like that.

Simoni proved what he claimed, at least to the satisfaction of CONI and the UCI. Whether he was on PEDs is a different subject and is irrelavant in this situation you bring up.

Actually Vaughters had to withdraw because he couldn't get a TUE for the bee sting medicine. He didn't get "kicked out". Not sure of the details of why he couldn't get a TUE.

The problem you pose is a problem in everything that is executed by humans; there is always the chance of mistakes. I personally think this is a valid argument to be against the death penalty, but I digress.

The best any system can do is have a fair appeals process and stated due process in the testing and sanctioning guidelines. Any "gray area" should go in the favor of the rider IMO.

You can't cut your nose off to spite your face, ie do away with penalties due to the chance mistakes will be made and innocents will suffer. You alleviate that the best you can as I describe above.

EDIT - I see CM addressed the JV thing upthread.

 

[skidmark]

Has anyone (recently anyway) been banned for 2 years because they over did their cofee?

I dunno, Mikel Astarloza was just hangin' out in his oxygen tent, undoubtedly talking with his teammates about how clean cycling is the best, when he was heinously tested by the vampires who found synthetic EPO, which was clearly from the oxygen tent. That was just last year.

 

[Oldman]

Hmm, there was an opportunity for this after Festina but no, doping just got worse and worse. Wonder who that "very first rider" was, the one who took a sport on the brink of being cleaned up and made it dirtier than ever? Oh yeah, the guy you considered a hero when you thought he was clean but now that you know he's a doper you're more pragmatic* about him.

* i.e. no longer blind, just plain biased

He's in the next phase of healing. Wasn't it:
Denial
Anger
Resignation (pragmatism)
Where the healing fan goes from here I'm not sure.

 

[BikeCentric]

He's in the next phase of healing. Wasn't it:
Denial
Anger
Resignation (pragmatism)
Where the healing fan goes from here I'm not sure.

I think from there it goes into some bizarre limbo of being fairly apathetic about the sport for the most part combined with wild swings of emotion between love and hate.

 

[les95035]

Hmm, there was an opportunity for this after Festina but no, doping just got worse and worse. Wonder who that "very first rider" was, the one who took a sport on the brink of being cleaned up and made it dirtier than ever? Oh yeah, the guy you considered a hero when you thought he was clean but now that you know he's a doper you're more pragmatic* about him.

* i.e. no longer blind, just plain biased

I'm no fan of LA, I just used him as an example of how someone could have tested clean for so long, to point out that testing is will not end doping. the 6 positive samples from 1999 was good enough for me.

 

[Mach Schnell]

The only way to stop PEDs in cycling is to hold the team management 100% accountable, not the riders. When the DS etc faces going to jail, then things will change. The directors and managers wnat the riders to win, sometimes at all costs, but they don't face any action if the riders is caught. It would be like a law firm telling their lawyers to win cases at all costs, ignore all ethics, and then not taking any heat when the lawyers get charged.
UNtil then, why bother?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

The only way to stop PEDs in cycling is to hold the team management 100% accountable, not the riders. When the DS etc faces going to jail, then things will change. The directors and managers wnat the riders to win, sometimes at all costs, but they don't face any action if the riders is caught. It would be like a law firm telling their lawyers to win cases at all costs, ignore all ethics, and then not taking any heat when the lawyers get charged.
UNtil then, why bother?

Yes, the scum that provide athletes with PED's should be treated like colombian drug lords. Lock em up for a very, very long time. I was just reading about austrian coach Walter Mayer and it made me so angry. This *** has been caught 3 times now!

Walter Mayer (born March 17, 1957) is an Austrian Cross-country skier and coach. He won the Vasaloppet in 1980, and finished second in 1992. As a coach, he was banned from the 2006 and 2010 Olympics after blood transfusion equipment was found in a house used by Austrian skiers during the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City, Utah. Mayer was accused of blood doping violations and the International Olympic Committee announced the ban after a three-month investigation.

At the 2006 Winter Olympics in Turin, Mayer—who had been spotted with the Austrian team despite his suspension—fled back to Austria after a surprise overnight raid on the quarters of the Austrian skiers by Italian police. He crashed his vehicle into a police roadblock, and was immediately relieved of his coaching duties by the Austrian Ski Federation. Police found syringes and a blood transfusion machine in the home where Mayer had been staying.[1] Claiming that he was suicidal, Mayer entered a psychiatric hospital in Austria. In an interview with News, an Austrian magazine, Mayer said he was trying to kill himself when he drove into the police roadblock.[citation needed] He pleaded guilty to charges of civil disorder, assault, and damage to property.

In March 2006, Mayer filed defamation lawsuits against **** Pound, head of the World Anti-Doping Agency and Jacques Rogge, president of the IOC. He withdrew both suits in February 2007. The IOC held hearings in April 2007 on allegations of doping by Austrian skiers at the 2006 games. On April 25 the hearings closed, resulting in the lifetime suspensions of six Austrian skiers. Banned as a result of the hearings were biathletes Wolfgang Perner and Wolfgang Rottmann as well as cross country skiers Martin Tauber, Juergen Pinter, Johannes Eder and Roland Diethart. While the six will be unable to compete in any capacity at any future Olympic event, the ban does not affect non-Olympic sporting events.

Mayer was arrested in Austria in March 2009 on suspicion of selling doping substances.[2]