Has the green jersey lost its prestige?

[trevim]

I think Degenkolb could have been a strong contender for green although not while he's with Kittel. And obviously not a favourite against Sagan, just a good contender I guess.

 

[CycloAndy]

Intermediate sprints should we worth a few less points than at present. The rolling/medium stages are enough to ensure Sagan et al would still have a chance of winning but it would be less guaranteed.

 

[saganftw]

better hope nobody wins 2 or 3 tours in a row because some ppl might want to change that classification too

 

[argyllflyer]

I give you a question. Do you as cycling fan prefer Sagan anmimating 8 out of 11 stages, beeing allways in finale or Sagan doing **** all the stages and winning one or two?

I just love this tour and way he has raced it so far. The results are not the proof of him beeing weaker btw the results are proof that DSs, riders are not the bunch of lazy stupid idiots and they did a lot of work during the winter.

He is loosing stage by stage, but I find myself enjoying the race and especially his attacs on his "wins" anyway.

Great for us, not great for his career perhaps. Besides, I'm not specifically referring to him only being weaker in the Tour - it's the entire season. He has won half as much in 2014 as he had in 2013 by the same point.

 

[argyllflyer]

better hope nobody wins 2 or 3 tours in a row because some ppl might want to change that classification too

For such a living legend, surely he should aspire to a bit more than winning the green jersey every year? With his ability, it should be big classics won rather than consistent top five placings in a grand tour.

 

[Jerkovin]

For such a living legend, surely he should aspire to a bit more than winning the green jersey every year? With his ability, it should be big classics won rather than consistent top five placings in a grand tour.

Well, considering the fact that he has been fuming for a good 8 days now, he pretty clearly isn't just satisfied with 2nds and 3rds.

I agree that he should go after the classics a bit more though.

 

[SKSemtex]

Has the win in bunch sprint lost its prestige?

It looks like nobody is really going for stage wins in flat stages. It seems only Marce Kittel is really interested in them. I really do not know why.

We used have some quite interesting fight before in bunch sprints.

 

[Netserk]

Well, considering the fact that he has been fuming for a good 8 days now, he pretty clearly isn't just satisfied with 2nds and 3rds.

I agree that he should go after the classics a bit more though.

How much more can he go after classics than he already does?

 

[thequestionmark]

Has the win in bunch sprint lost its prestige?

It looks like nobody is really going for stage wins in flat stages. It seems only Marce Kittel is really interested in them. I really do not know why.

We used have some quite interesting fight before in bunch sprints.

Seriously?

There are at lot of teams interested contesting in the bunch sprints. If not attackers would have won them. It's just that Kittel is way better than the others.

 

[SKSemtex]

Seriously?

There are at lot of teams interested contesting in the bunch sprints. If not attackers would have won them. It's just that Kittel is way better than the others.

Seriously?

 

[murali]

I think this has already boiled down to who loves/hates Sagan thread already.


imo, green jersey used to be a good competition bcoz real sprinters used to contest for it. dont give me the Thor argument. He earned every bit of tht green jersey by riding for it the hard way.

The point's jersey has lost its glory exactly for the same reason that yellow jersey has lost its glory.


Though, i completely support the suggestion of bringing back parity in points system by adding at least two intermediate sprints in every stage, with one of them very early in the stage. And, more money for the sprinters.

 

[kurtinsc]

Exactly this. The yellow jersey is for the race on time, the green jersey is for the race on points - the most consistent rider. Which Sagan very clearly is. From letour.fr: Overall individual classification by points / Classement général individuel par points. Not Classement général du meilleur sprinteur by analogy with the polka dots.

I don't think anyone would be bothered about Sagan having this in the bag if the yellow jersey didn't seem sown up already as well.

I think the issue is the huge number of points for the intermediate sprint.

I think it would be fine if the tour went back to having multiple intermediates with 6/4/2 points on offer for first, second and third.

With only 3 spots getting points, the breakaway generally takes all of them. In hilly stages that eliminate the pure sprinters early, Sagan doesn't just get points from the finish but also picks up points from the intermediate that are virutally uncontested. If breakaways ate up those points in either case, then Sagan's edge would be smaller.

It would still be there... Hushovd beat Cav for a points jersey when cav was winning most of the sprints due to hilly and even mountain stage performances. But Thor had to pull off some impressive all-day attacks, got a Cav relegation and still barely pulled it out. It was a contest.

With the current big-point intermediat sprint model... it's no contest.

 

[Netserk]

Y'all are aware that the competition was changed to it's current format so Cavendish could win it, right?

As in it was harder for him before.

 

[SKSemtex]

I think the issue is the huge number of points for the intermediate sprint.

I think it would be fine if the tour went back to having multiple intermediates with 6/4/2 points on offer for first, second and third.

With only 3 spots getting points, the breakaway generally takes all of them. In hilly stages that eliminate the pure sprinters early, Sagan doesn't just get points from the finish but also picks up points from the intermediate that are virutally uncontested. If breakaways ate up those points in either case, then Sagan's edge would be smaller.

It would still be there... Hushovd beat Cav for a points jersey when cav was winning most of the sprints due to hilly and even mountain stage performances. But Thor had to pull off some impressive all-day attacks, got a Cav relegation and still barely pulled it out. It was a contest.

With the current big-point intermediat sprint model... it's no contest.

As a man who hates dominance in any sport I agree. 25 points for intermediate sprints is probably too much. With present system we really loosing one part of Tour (fight for green jersey). Sagan ability to finish top 5 in practicky all but MTF stages + his consistency must be pretty demoralizing for other contenders .

 

[William H]

The main issue is that people need to make a special effort to contest the green jersey now, whereas previously they would come into contention automatically if they were competing for stages.

I think the sprinters always preferred stage wins over the jersey, but now it's seen as more of a choice.

Then you add Sagan's brilliance to that, which makes victory unlikely, and the fact that finishing second in it is pretty worthless, and people like Kittel, as well as those who get off to a poor start just choose to forget it.

(I don't think the balance between pure sprinters and Sagan types has changed greatly - the extra points for winning help the Cav/Kittels, the intermediate sprints have a bigger upside for stronger riders)

 

[Boardslide]

In previous tours there was always a bigger break allowed to get away therefore taking the majority of the points but this year they only seem to let 3 - 5 riders go meaning there's still big points to go for. In his book Cav said he was always glad to see a big break go.

 

[Afrank]

better hope nobody wins 2 or 3 tours in a row because some ppl might want to change that classification too

This thread and discussion in it isn't due to Sagan winning 3 years in a row. It's due to the fact that no one is even trying to challenge him for it.

 

[Netserk]

There are more who challenge Sagan than there are who challenge Purito...

 

[William H]

There are more who challenge Sagan than there are who challenge Purito...

TV put up a fight in the last serious stage. And the KoM competition has barely started - Rodriguez has 51 points, there are 50 for the final climb.

But I don't think many people would say that the KoM competition was in good shape.

 

[Afrank]

There are more who challenge Sagan than there are who challenge Purito...

But who has, since the start of the Tour, made the green jersey a priority and has been seriously trying to compete with Sagan for it? There was Coquard early, and...that's it really. Plenty are challenging Sagan for stage wins. Barely any for Green.

Just look at the current standings. TBH reads like one guy going for it, and a bunch of others for which green is a afterthought.
1 Peter Sagan (Svk) Cannondale 341 pts
2 Bryan Coquard (Fra) Team Europcar 191
3 Alexander Kristoff (Nor) Team Katusha 172
4 Marcel Kittel (Ger) Team Giant-Shimano 167
5 Mark Renshaw (Aus) Omega Pharma-Quick Step 118

 

[alspacka]

I'm not really sure what the problem is here. Cav would've been going for it, probably Griepel too if he didn't have such a bad start.
Sagan is currently by far the best rider in terms of variety and consistency. I think it's right he should be rewarded for this.
Perhaps if Sagan wasn't around someone like Degenkolb or Kristoff would be leading a team with green as their primary goal, but he is, so why bother?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Sagan is currently by far the best rider in terms of variety and consistency. I think it's right he should be rewarded for this.

He's so good he makes the race boring!!!

 

[Krebs cycle]

Green jersey should be the reward for the most consistently highly-placed rider. not the best sprinter. the reward for the best sprinter is to win stages, that is enough. Sagan is by far the best as getting good placing on different types of stage so he deserves to win green

I believe that Sagan would probably win anyway, however the question is not about Sagan. The question is why isn't anyone else even bothering to challenge him?

There are numerous riders that are capable but as far as the intermediate sprints are concerned he has basically been allowed to roll over the line virtually uncontested on several occasions. This indicates that the points competition is not considered worth targeting even for those teams with riders whom do have the necessary attributes. Granted, Cavendish and Greipel are out due to crashes, but Kittel could make life hard by winning intermediate sprints, Degenkolb could assist Kittel by challenging on stages where Kittel woul dget dropped early, and other riders like Kristoff and Gerrans (both of whom have gotten the better of Sagan in bunch sprints and/or hard rolling stages) could certainly challenge. They might not win, but at least there would be a points COMPETITION.

edit: what about 2nd, 3rd, 4th place in the points competition? Imagine if everyone stopped attacking the yellow jersey when he did not yet have an unbeatable lead? Imagine if after the lead was unbeatable everyone stopped competing for top 5 places? When there is no 2nd place this tends to stifle competition in the event that someone has already sown up the win. It's a bit like the Netherlands deciding to go back home and not bothering to challenge Brasil for 3rd spot in the World Cup.

 

[William H]

There are numerous riders that are capable

They're not really. Wipe out the intermediate points and Sagan's still got a huge lead

The lack of prestige for the minor placings in the lesser classifications is an issue, but I'm not sure it's fixable.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

He's so good he makes the race boring!!!

Pretty much this. A closer race would give it more prestige as it would seen to be more competitive. He is just so far above anyone else in this competition that the story will be when he does not win it.