How can you tell a rider is clean?

[eljimberino]

Spend a week or two lurking in this forum and you'll soon read about a myriad theories and techniques for spotting programmers. Some people even believe that every rider is on 'juice'. A few loyal fans think their man is clean. But how can you tell? What convinces you that your favourite rider isn't on a program, and is naturally 100% clean?

Please provide video footage to back up your claims if you can.

 

[Cerberus]

That's a simple question to answer: You can't. Best thing you can say is that there is no evidence of doping, but as the past has shown with painful clarity that isn't proof. Releasing non-suspicious blood values would be indicative, but still not proof.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Please provide video footage to back up your claims if you can.

What kind of video footage would you consider proof that a rider is clean?

Susan

 

[wattage]

If their threshold power is 6w/kg or less. Anything above 6w/kg is suspicous.

 

[eljimberino]

What kind of video footage would you consider proof that a rider is clean?

Susan

Someone clearly suffering while competing against a cheat who is later suspended, for example. I don't know. Hence starting a thread to discover what you didn't already know.

 

[Cerberus]

If their threshold power is 6w/kg or less. Anything above 6w/kg is suspicous.

Having a low threshold power doesn't prove you're clean, it could just mean you're not that good. No matter how much EPO I took, I'd never even approach 6 w/kg.

 

[Digger]

No mud marks or bad odours - shiny hair is a giveaway.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Someone clearly suffering while competing against a cheat who is later suspended, for example. I don't know. Hence starting a thread to discover what you didn't already know.

There could be all kinds of reasons for that. I really don't see how video footage would prove anything.

Susan

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

If their threshold power is 6w/kg or less. Anything above 6w/kg is suspicous.

Just rubbish I'm afraid. I'm as convinced as the next man that producing big numbers on long climbs in week 3 of a grand tour is not paticularly likely, but if you're going to use terms with specific meanings like threshold power, use them sensibly.

1 hour output in peak conditions, fully rested, at over 6W/KG is perfectly possible for talented fully trained riders.

 

[fatandfast]

Within the last 3 weeks we have been told by multiple TDF winners, Former world champions, and current stand outs that the "suspicion factor" is hurting cycling both on a moral level to the racers and on a financial level of attracting team and event sponsors to cycling. Bio passports are a good start to quell all this BS about who is dirty. Doctors are often amazed when a person gets an STD and is surprised because their partner "looked" clean. The science is there if you choose to use it and listen to those entrusted to report the results. Just for fun some people constantly speculate. The devil will find work for idle hands.

 

[ravens]

Someone clearly suffering while competing against a cheat who is later suspended, for example. I don't know. Hence starting a thread to discover what you didn't already know.

Take a look at the videos of Rasmussen beating Contador in 2007 tdf mountain stages. Especially the post race interviews when AC is gasping for breath and the chicken looks like he is fresh as a daisy. It doesn't say much as to whether AC is clean or not, but at that point it was obvious to me that the chicken was on a gallon or two of Frank Perdue's finest growth hormones.

Also check out Ricardo Ricco, same tour, prior to his suspension. It gets harder and harder to justify continued interest in pro-cycling. Especially at the GT level. The first clean guy may be 10th on GC, or maybe 35th....

Although there is no known video, I went on a road ride a few years ago with some folks and one person brought their teenage son on a rusty mountain bike with a very squeaky chain. After we turned for home, I smelled something familiar as I gasped for air and was clearly suffering, but the odor seemed out of place, as the squeaky chain got closer I looked back...the effing kid was smoking a cigarette...never even said he was sorry.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Spend a week or two lurking in this forum and you'll soon read about a myriad theories and techniques for spotting programmers. Some people even believe that every rider is on 'juice'. A few loyal fans think their man is clean. But how can you tell? What convinces you that your favourite rider isn't on a program, and is naturally 100% clean

You can't tell if any rider is clean, so all riders are accused. They're in a no win situation.....so if you can't win the PR battle, might as well take some hot sauce and win a bike race!

That's what frustrates me about the chorus of "they're definitely all doing it" or "he claims to be clean and therefore is definitely a hypocritical doper".

 

[Anonymous]

No mud marks or bad odours - shiny hair is a giveaway.

Hilarious!!

 

[the truth.]

If their threshold power is 6w/kg or less. Anything above 6w/kg is suspicous.

rubbish. I have tested four young riders all above 6.

rebuild the trust and the suspicion will dissipate.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Take a look at the videos of Rasmussen beating Contador in 2007 tdf mountain stages. Especially the post race interviews when AC is gasping for breath and the chicken looks like he is fresh as a daisy. It doesn't say much as to whether AC is clean or not, but at that point it was obvious to me that the chicken was on a gallon or two of Frank Perdue's finest growth hormones.

Also check out Ricardo Ricco, same tour, prior to his suspension. It gets harder and harder to justify continued interest in pro-cycling. Especially at the GT level. The first clean guy may be 10th on GC, or maybe 35th....

Although there is no known video, I went on a road ride a few years ago with some folks and one person brought their teenage son on a rusty mountain bike with a very squeaky chain. After we turned for home, I smelled something familiar as I gasped for air and was clearly suffering, but the odor seemed out of place, as the squeaky chain got closer I looked back...the effing kid was smoking a cigarette...never even said he was sorry.

Contador looked the same as Rasmussen.

 

[ravens]

Contador looked the same as Rasmussen.

you're out of your mind!

 

[auscyclefan94]

you're out of your mind!

Watch the Loudenvielle stage, Contador was putting Rasmussen into major difficulty on the Peyresoude... They are in the same boat.

 

[BigBoat]

Spend a week or two lurking in this forum and you'll soon read about a myriad theories and techniques for spotting programmers. Some people even believe that every rider is on 'juice'. A few loyal fans think their man is clean. But how can you tell? What convinces you that your favourite rider isn't on a program, and is naturally 100% clean?

Please provide video footage to back up your claims if you can.

I think I can HELP here.......Riders who are doped on EPO or blood transfusions have a certain "Jacked" look to them. They DO NOT drop cadence or drop cadence very little 30-40 minutes into a long time trial. They will go from an "average" man to suddenly a "jacked" man...SUSTAINABLE POWER OUTPUT per kilo on climbs, look at that. If a 25 year old can only muster 5.5 watts per kilo and suddenly is developing 6.5 watts per kilo chances are close to 100% that your dealing with a doper.

Greg Lemond WON the TDF in 1990 at 30 years old...The next year he got his *** handed to him on a platter by 6 riders and by 1992 he was dropped by the pack and couldnt finish the TDF at 32 years of age...The reason for this wasnt because he was a doper, it was the advent of r-EPO (a recumbant way to help Kidney dialasis patients and many others build red blood cells.) Blood doping and epo was completely uncommon to pro cycling before this...but after 1991 all in the pros knew about it.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgtxhgrL-1s

Watch THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiCIJ2JewPE

 

[ravens]

Watch the Loudenvielle stage, Contador was putting Rasmussen into major difficulty on the Peyresoude... They are in the same boat.

We disagree. (Gosh I hope I can get over that! ) Sadly, pro-cycling (and other sports, too) has gotten itself to a point where a base level of doping seems to be tolerated (it's sort of like detente). The chicken's doping in tdf '07 was beyond the 'norm' - I particularly was impressed by his time trialing skills! Both doping, but one was realllyyy doping. The sport has a problem (along with all sports). Fans of some sports are MUCH less tolerant than fans of other sports, American football comes most readily to mind.

I think in football, the outcome of the game is not predicated on drug use to the extent of sports like cycling. At least that is how I see the fans' perception of it.

You're still out of your mind.

 

[BigBoat]

We disagree. (Gosh I hope I can get over that! ) Sadly, pro-cycling (and other sports, too) has gotten itself to a point where a base level of doping seems to be tolerated (it's sort of like detente). The chicken's doping in tdf '07 was beyond the 'norm' - I particularly was impressed by his time trialing skills! Both doping, but one was realllyyy doping. The sport has a problem (along with all sports). Fans of some sports are MUCH less tolerant than fans of other sports, American football comes most readily to mind.

I think in football, the outcome of the game is not predicated on drug use to the extent of sports like cycling. At least that is how I see the fans' perception of it.

You're still out of your mind.

NFL fans have absolutely ZERO relationship with the players. The only relationship is with the TEAM. Players are bought, sold, traded year to year and nobody cares apart from the occasional "Favorite" like Brett Favre...So people "objectify" the sport as a competition to see who's "battle ship" is the strongest.

Huge amounts of MONEY also destroy any since of Empathy for the blocker "Bubba" who's on HGH, ACTH hormone, many steroids.

 

[ravens]

NFL fans have absolutely ZERO relationship with the players. The only relationship is with the TEAM. Players are bought, sold, traded year to year and nobody cares apart from the occasional "Favorite" like Brett Favre...So people "objectify" the sport as a competition to see who's "battle ship" is the strongest.

Huge amounts of MONEY also destroy any since of Empathy for the blocker "Bubba" who's on HGH, ACTH hormone, many steroids.

My comments were restricted to the drugs and the correlation to the outcome of the event. The rest of that seems better discussed on a different thread. I disagree to some extent, and agree to some. But it's all a bit off topic to really dig in right here.

 

[SirLes]

Sadly you can't. I think the testing procedures are getting better but because it is still possible to beat the system or at least use methods that cannot yet be detected it means you cannot "prove" innocence. Because of this suspicion reigns and fans are required to take one of the following three positions.

1) They all take drugs, only fools or the desperate get caught.

2) They are all considered clean until they are actually convicted of a doping offense (or confess)

2b!) They are clean unless you hear of evidence that is sufficient to convince you that they cheated even if they are not sanctioned. (very frustrating)

3) The riders I choose to support are all clean and those I don't like are all cheaters.
This is my favourite position as it allows you cheer your rider for beating the cheating b*st*rds when he wins or blame the cheating b*st*rds when he loses. Of course if someone you support fails a test then obviously he is a victim of bias, dodgy lab or error and any "unusual activity" can be explained away.

It also allows you to indulge in stereotyping and bigotry. So noble Brit beats cheating ***** etc etc!!!!

It definitely makes watching more fun.

Apologies for reposting what I wrote on another thread but it is more apt here.

 

[ravens]

It definitely makes watching more fun.

Apologies for reposting what I wrote on another thread but it is more apt here.

It most definitely does NOT make watching more fun, and it really inhibits the growth of watching the sport to fans of other sports. It's terribly sad.

We watch and wonder if what we are seeing is real and too frequently are reminded that it is NOT.

It may be more fun for you, but for most people it is NOT as much fun as if we could allow ourselves the luxury to truly believe in it.

 

[SirLes]

It most definitely does NOT make watching more fun, and it really inhibits the growth of watching the sport to fans of other sports. It's terribly sad.

We watch and wonder if what we are seeing is real and too frequently are reminded that it is NOT.

It may be more fun for you, but for most people it is NOT as much fun as if we could allow ourselves the luxury to truly believe in it.

If we could trust the riders/testing procedures and so believe what we were seeing was real that would be much more fun, I agree entirely.

I wish we could return to a situation when the drugs available had far less of an impact.

Perhaps we have reached that with the blood passport?, time will tell. In the meantime I have to settle for what I can when watching.

 

[ravens]

If we could trust the riders/testing procedures and so believe what we were seeing was real that would be much more fun, I agree entirely.

I wish we could return to a situation when the drugs available had far less of an impact.

Perhaps we have reached that with the blood passport?, time will tell. In the meantime I have to settle for what I can when watching.

I think the passport has created a 'ped-detente', where the riders can dope within certain parameters until a better test arrives creating more natural results or better drugs arrive creating less natural results.

Yes, we must all settle. Landis broke my heart. One day, AC could, too. Perhaps I would be happier if I could just blindly follow someone the way Lance's followers do and believe his every denial. Then I could just revel in the wins the way sober people wish they could.