how easy to micro dope and avoid positives?

[Benotti69]

how easy to micro dope and avoid positives?

this easy

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n533v42874675567/

Ten subjects were given twice weekly intravenous injections of rhEPO for up to 12 weeks. Full blood counts were measured using a Sysmex XE-2100 automated haematology analyser, and total haemoglobin mass via a carbon monoxide rebreathing test. The sensitivity of the passport to flag abnormal deviations in blood values was evaluated using dedicated Athlete Blood Passport software. Our treatment regimen elicited a 10% increase in total haemoglobin mass equivalent to approximately two bags of reinfused blood.

The passport software did not flag any subjects as being suspicious of doping whilst they were receiving rhEPO.

So if it can't be detected i guess most dope.

Why would the doping DS change the habits of their sporting life?

more interesting info here about pros encouraging young elites to dope.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0838.2009.00885.x/abstract

Using a psychosociological approach, the purpose of this study was to identify and understand the use of doping substances by young elite cyclists. Semi-structured interviews were conducted with young cyclists who were hoping to find a professional team and cyclists who had recently become professional. All of the young cyclists interviewed took nutritional supplements and believed that they improved their performance, which has been shown by other scholars to be a risk factor for doping. These cyclists believed that doping at the professional level in cycling was acceptable but did not approve of it at the amateur level.

The more experienced cyclists, who doped or used to dope, transmitted the culture of doping to the young cyclists, teaching them doping methods and which substances to use.

 

[sniper]

The real sad thing is those posters still defending the likes of AC and Evans.
Posters seriously believing cycling got or is getting cleaner.
Posters claiming that in 2011 we witnessed a clean tour.
Those posters m m make my eyes rain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIxHb7cA6tg

EDIT: the latter article you linked also shows something else: Cycling is indeed among the dirtiest sports world-wide.
I don'T know many other sports where one generation introduces the next generation into the field of doping.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It is very important for the average forum reader to understand that "suspicious" in bio-passport terms isn't a positive but suggests the presence of a PED. Think of it like a range of numbers from 1-10 with 10 being an actual positive, suspicious is 5-9 range.

The EPO tests they are using aren't even registering suspicious use!

This is still more scientific evidence leading to the conclusion that biopassport system is an elaborate artifice. Any interpretation of the biopassport that casts the UCI/IOC in a more favorable light is willful denial.

 

[hrotha]

This is still more scientific evidence leading to the conclusion that biopassport system is an elaborate artifice. Any interpretation of the biopassport that casts the UCI/IOC in a more favorable light is willful denial.

Would you favour eliminating the biopassport?

 

[The Hitch]

The real sad thing is those posters still defending the likes of AC and Evans.
Posters seriously believing cycling got or is getting cleaner.


EDIT: the latter article you linked also shows something else: Cycling is indeed among the dirtiest sports world-wide.

Please explain why other sports wouldn't have as much doping as cycling. is it some evil gene that those of us who have bikes possess ?

 

[mastersracer]

they do point out that an accompanying urinalysis would be positive with probability .25 if the sample was collected 2 days post-injection. Contador's passport was suspicious during the Tour according to Ashenden, so even athletes with resources to have a systematic program are sloppy, and the passport could still be used on them to target other testing.

 

[Merckx index]

using a Sysmex XE-2100 automated haematology analyzer

Isn’t this what LA’s donation was used to buy? He will be very disappointed to learn its uselessness, no doubt.

Ashenden’s earlier work has also shown that the passport doesn’t detect blood transfusions reliably, either. This was why I argued that Contador’s clean passport data (assuming it even was) shouldn’t have meant much at his hearing.

Would you favour eliminating the biopassport?

Important to emphasize that Ashenden is not trying to trash the passport system, but improve it. He’s trying to develop a better one. This is an ongoing project. But for blood transfusions, probably new tests based on changes that occur in stored red blood cells are an important part of the answer.

These cyclists believed that doping at the professional level in cycling was acceptable but did not approve of it at the amateur level.

To the extent this is actually true, it provides some hope for a passport system, at least an improved one. One of the knocks against the passport system is that if riders are doping from the very beginning, the baseline will reflect this and won’t change much as a result of doping. If a significant number of pros come up clean through the amateur ranks, they will bring a meaningful passport baseline with them. Of course, the passport could have the opposite effect, i.e., encourage amateurs to dope from the get-go.

I don'T know many other sports where one generation introduces the next generation into the field of doping.

Serious? I would say this happens in all or most sports. Certainly in MLB, for example. The evidence for this is overwhelming in some of the doping stories that have emerged in recent years. Do you really think that each generation discovers doping on its own? The whole point of doping is to keep up with the competition, which means that new pros must learn it from vets.

Please explain why other sports wouldn't have as much doping as cycling. is it some evil gene that those of us who have bikes possess ?

Not a big mystery. Doping has a much greater effect on improving endurance as opposed to improving skills. Doping can help a baseball player swing a bat faster (increasing his BA as well as power), but I don’t think it can enhance his hand-eye coordination, or ability to make plays in the field. It can make an NFL player stronger and faster, but again, it isn’t going to help him much in reacting to plays. In bike racing, particularly the climbing and TTs that decide GTs, endurance is almost everything.

That said, the phrase "wouldn't have as much doping" needs to be qualified. It might be, for all I know, that just as large a % of athletes in MLB or the NFL are doping as are in cycling. I tend to think that might be the case. But I think that for a sizable proportion of these players, the doping is not as intense or as frequent as in cycling. There are positions in baseball where power hitting is not required, just as there are positions in football where brute strength is not required. Players in these positions may be competitive clean, or at least would not be on as full a program as players at other positions. Whereas it's questionable, at least in my view, whether even a domestique can do his job in a GT without a pretty substantial boost.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Would you favour eliminating the biopassport?

I favor getting the UCI out of testing altogether. The biopassport would be much better without the UCI running interference on it at every turn. The way it is right now is like opposite-land. Elaborate on its face and yet aggressively supports doping.

 

[hughmoore]

Everyone in Peleton is doping according to this forum, so why you fussed about it. Get over it.



Hugh

 

[sniper]

@Hitch (sorry, my quoting function is not working)

I did say why, but you chose to leave it out:
I don'T know many other sports where one generation introduces the next generation into the field of doping.
It's most defnitely not a gene. It's a culture. You know the difference, right?

of course, the quantity of doping and willingness to dope in (american) football, tennis, and many other sports is probably as high as or higher than in cycling. but that doesn't mean that cycling isn't among the dirtiest sports. In any case, doping is probably as cultivated in cycling as in few other sports.

 

[The Hitch]

@Hitch (sorry, my quoting function is not working)

I did say why, but you chose to leave it out:
I don'T know many other sports where one generation introduces the next generation into the field of doping.
It's most defnitely not a gene. It's a culture. You know the difference, right?

of course, the quantity of doping and willingness to dope in (american) football, tennis, and many other sports is probably as high as or higher than in cycling. but that doesn't mean that cycling isn't among the dirtiest sports. In any case, doping is probably as cultivated in cycling as in few other sports.

That's not a why Its a how. it doesn't explain why a cyclist would dope and say a rower would not.. and not a very good one because there is just no way you can know how many sports do the same.

 

[Winterfold]

Hitch - I agree there is no reason why 'individual attitudes' to doping should be different among elite athletes, as I suspect 'elite athlete' is what sets them apart rather than sport.

But are you trying to say that the 'subjective norms' of cycling wrt doping are the same as rowing?

Professional road cycling clearly has a doping culture that is at the Trainspotting end of the sports-doping continuum, along with eg XC skiing and IMO baseball.

The way we collectively put it as 'cycling' makes it to simplistic as well - I would be very surprised if there was much PED use in Downhill MTB for example either in terms of individual attitudes or subjective norms. It's pure skill (with massive cojones)

The second of Benotti's (Thanks!!!) links is pretty chilling reading:

"The participants of this
study did not see safeguarding their health as a
reason not to dope,"

"the young cyclists being interviewed
here did not see doping as destroying sport. In fact,
they saw doping as part of sport. The reason for
taking banned substances was to win, to be better
and stronger than the others."

Why python wrote what he did:

"Moreover, because the decision to use banned substances is
mediated by social factors, prevention campaigns
should target the sporting environment of the cyclists
(especially the cyclists of the ‘‘former generation’’
and team staff )"

(Lentillon-Kaestner & Carstairs, 2008)

 

[veganrob]

That's not a why Its a how. it doesn't explain why a cyclist would dope and say a rower would not.. and not a very good one because there is just no way you can know how many sports do the same.

I really believe it is primarily about the money. More money to be made increases the temptations and opportunities for doping.

 

[spetsa]

I really believe it is primarily about the money. More money to be made increases the temptations and opportunities for doping.

I am suprised that I had never thought of that. No wonder they are all doing it. Off to surf the web for some Chinese EPO and the closest masters training crit with prize money.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Isn’t this what LA’s donation was used to buy? He will be very disappointed to learn its uselessness, no doubt.

Ashenden’s earlier work has also shown that the passport doesn’t detect blood transfusions reliably, either. This was why I argued that Contador’s clean passport data (assuming it even was) shouldn’t have meant much at his hearing.



Important to emphasize that Ashenden is not trying to trash the passport system, but improve it. He’s trying to develop a better one. This is an ongoing project. But for blood transfusions, probably new tests based on changes that occur in stored red blood cells are an important part of the answer.



To the extent this is actually true, it provides some hope for a passport system, at least an improved one. One of the knocks against the passport system is that if riders are doping from the very beginning, the baseline will reflect this and won’t change much as a result of doping. If a significant number of pros come up clean through the amateur ranks, they will bring a meaningful passport baseline with them. Of course, the passport could have the opposite effect, i.e., encourage amateurs to dope from the get-go.



Serious? I would say this happens in all or most sports. Certainly in MLB, for example. The evidence for this is overwhelming in some of the doping stories that have emerged in recent years. Do you really think that each generation discovers doping on its own? The whole point of doping is to keep up with the competition, which means that new pros must learn it from vets.



Not a big mystery. Doping has a much greater effect on improving endurance as opposed to improving skills. Doping can help a baseball player swing a bat faster (increasing his BA as well as power), but I don’t think it can enhance his hand-eye coordination, or ability to make plays in the field. It can make an NFL player stronger and faster, but again, it isn’t going to help him much in reacting to plays. In bike racing, particularly the climbing and TTs that decide GTs, endurance is almost everything.

That said, the phrase "wouldn't have as much doping" needs to be qualified. It might be, for all I know, that just as large a % of athletes in MLB or the NFL are doping as are in cycling. I tend to think that might be the case. But I think that for a sizable proportion of these players, the doping is not as intense or as frequent as in cycling. There are positions in baseball where power hitting is not required, just as there are positions in football where brute strength is not required. Players in these positions may be competitive clean, or at least would not be on as full a program as players at other positions. Whereas it's questionable, at least in my view, whether even a domestique can do his job in a GT without a pretty substantial boost.

That last kind of ignores the fact that the ability to practice longer and harder (and recover) will enhance skills.

 

[pnwrider]

That last kind of ignores the fact that the ability to practice longer and harder (and recover) will enhance skills.

Your still talking about nebulous effects to doping. It's not like cycling--where if you take X amount of EPO, you will ride up Alpe du Huez Y faster. Any other sport--football (American and not), baseball, and tennis doping has much more questionable benefit. It helps undoubtedly--but there isn't the direct correlation to performance that there is in cycling.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Everyone in Peleton is doping according to this forum, so why you fussed about it. Get over it.
Hugh

How many times do we have to go over this?

If doping is okay, then you go first. Talk to your buddies about your EPO dosage and go for it. Still good?

If you are all good with doping then you pay the medical bills for the unintended health effects of doping. You may be surprised at the number of athletes taking you up on your offer.

And let's not forget the old "What about the children?" Doping is all good in your book, so start some kids early on the program. Who cares if you kill a couple like what happened in the late 80s.

C'mon now, no cowardly bomb thrown and run. You are good with doping, so you deal with the consequences.

 

[Velodude]

How many times do we have to go over this?

If doping is okay, then you go first. Talk to your buddies about your EPO dosage and go for it. Still good?

If you are all good with doping then you pay the medical bills for the unintended health effects of doping. You may be surprised at the number of athletes taking you up on your offer.

And let's not forget the old "What about the children?" Doping is all good in your book, so start some kids early on the program. Who cares if you kill a couple like what happened in the late 80s.

C'mon now, no cowardly bomb thrown and run. You are good with doping, so you deal with the consequences.

If you had read hughmoore's signature you would have understood his motive and either not responded or responded differently.

The hughmoore signature said:

"Lance Armstrong licked 'em again. Always has. Always will.
Like cancer and the Tour de France, the federal government turned out to be just another challenge to conquer. On his trophy wall, next to those bright yellow jerseys he got for winning the world's toughest bike race seven times, Armstrong can now hang the scalp of steroid cop Jeff Novitzky

 

[joe_papp]

I really believe it is primarily about the money. More money to be made increases the temptations and opportunities for doping.

Just watch the episode of old OLN's Lance Chronicles where he shows off his then-phat pad in Spain to understand the money-motivated impetus to dope at the most elite level...

 

[hfer07]

Our treatment regimen elicited a 10% increase in total haemoglobin mass equivalent to approximately two bags of reinfused blood.

Is that correct? I always thought micro dosing wouldn't provide that kind of boost, since the small dosage would be processed by the body faster due to its life time reduction...
If so-I don't see why they wouldn't continue to use EPO at all-since blood transfusions are more complicated & costly-perhaps not for the top guys-but the middle guys indeed can do EPO without breaking the bank...

 

[Berzin]

Please explain why other sports wouldn't have as much doping as cycling. is it some evil gene that those of us who have bikes possess?

I'll be glad to explain the bits I've experienced.

Playing college basketball, no one I knew doped. But recreational drugs and alcohol were definitely prevalent all the way down to the high school level.

I distinctly remember the center for my high school basketball team asking the team manager during an away game to hold a small plastic bag full of weed that he had hidden in his sock. All the best players partied, and partied hard. In college it was worse.

In cycling, even ham-and-eggers/weekend warriors look to enhance their performance, and from my experience are only hindered by lack of access to doping products.

The prevailing attitude amongst quite a few, and this has nothing to do with amateurs looking to score a pro contract, is that they would willingly take whatever they could get their hands on, and would do so in complete ignorance of the health risks. If you're a meathead and don't really care about the consequences, you are a prime candidate.

Given that cycling is about brute strength and endurance exclusively, this could be the reason why cycling is more prone to such activity. But PED's in general are a societal problem, and the majority of usage from yuppies to sports enthusiasts and older people looking for the vitality of youth is driven by vanity and insecurity and not for excelling in sports per se.

 

[Neworld]

Is that correct? I always thought micro dosing wouldn't provide that kind of boost, since the small dosage would be processed by the body faster due to its life time reduction...
If so-I don't see why they wouldn't continue to use EPO at all-since blood transfusions are more complicated & costly-perhaps not for the top guys-but the middle guys indeed can do EPO without breaking the bank...

It has a positive effect on any individual, but the spike/effect is specific to the individual.

AND, autologous doping is additive. ERGO, saying everyone dopes does NOT mean everyone dopes equally. You hit on the financial impedance to doping equally. Most just use injectables or salves. The big boys like Lance do injectables, salves and blood doping.

So in Mr. Moore's myopic evaluation of doping and letting 'everyone just dope' isn't even an even playing field for dopers. I'd love to see Lance or Horner just use EPO for a grand tour...talk about pack fill.

NW

 

[Velodude]

It has a positive effect on any individual, but the spike/effect is specific to the individual.

AND, autologous doping is additive. ERGO, saying everyone dopes does NOT mean everyone dopes equally. You hit on the financial impedance to doping equally. Most just use injectables or salves. The big boys like Lance do injectables, salves and blood doping.

So in Mr. Moore's myopic evaluation of doping and letting 'everyone just dope' isn't even an even playing field for dopers. I'd love to see Lance or Horner just use EPO for a grand tour...talk about pack fill.

NW

This was Jesus Manzano's list of drugs he used to try to reach the level playing field. Manzano was fired by Kelme in 2003 for being too amorous.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)

 

[sniper]

This was Jesus Manzano's list of drugs he used to try to reach the level playing field. Manzano was fired by Kelme in 2003 for being too amorous.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)

I'd be curious to know:
Did the UCI ever approach Manzano after his hospitalization and confessions?
Just some flowers or a "get well soon"-card would have sufficed.

 

[Neworld]

This was Jesus Manzano's list of drugs he used to try to reach the level playing field. Manzano was fired by Kelme in 2003 for being too amorous.

Actovegin (extract of calves blood which supposedly improves oxygen carrying capacity)
Albumina H. (protein in blood plasma)
Androgel (testosterone)
Aranesp (Darbepoetin alfa = super EPO)
Celestote (corticosteroid)
Eprex (EPO)
Genotorm (growth hormone)
Hemoce (plasma)
Deca durabolin (anabolic steroid)
Humatrope (growth hormone)
IgF1 (insulin growth factor 1)
Neofertinon (hormone to stimulate ovulation and estrogen production)
Neorecormon (hormone that regulates red blood cell production)
Norditropin (growth hormone)
Nuvacten (corticosteroid)
Trigon (asthma drug)
Urbason (corticosteroid)
Ventolin (bronchial dilator)
Oxandrolona (anabolic agent)
Vitamin B12 (essential B vitamin)
Triamcinolona (corticosteroid)
Testoviron (testosterone)
Aspirina (analgesic, anti-inflammatory)
Oxyglobin (artificial haemoglobin intended for anaemic dogs)
Hemopure (artificial haemoglobin)
Ferlixit (iron)
Caffeine (stimulant)
Hemassist (artificial haemoglobin)
Prozac (antidepressant)

Aspirin...that's low, no even playing field with that supp.