If You're Thinking of Doping...

[Alpe d'Huez]

Not sure how many amateur racers, or riders with serious aspirations are on here, I don't think many, but some may lurk here. So I want to say this. I have said this several times on this board, and on others, and to a few younger riders I have talked to about doping.

If you are thinking of doping to get gains, DON'T DO IT.

You can get so much more from coaching and a specific training program tailored to your needs than doping at your level. It's not until you're way, way the hell up there (like Cat 1 heading into Pro/elite) that it should even be considered. Even then, be very careful with what you're doing and consult with a medical professional.

Instead, find a coach that will give you their time, listen to what you are trying to do, and knows what they are doing. You'll be surprised how much this can help, and the cost will probably be about the same. But with the coach you can take information that will last you a lifetime.

I also tell anyone on any level if they want a boost to try altitude training. Spend your next vacation with your bike in Leadville or Alta Colorado, or Mammoth Lakes, California. Ride around the passes there, with planned training. Then go home a few days just before your big ride/race and see how much better you perform. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[blackcat]

Alpe will find you a starring spot in Faust at the St Petersburg Opera first.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, some of the first theatrical representations of Faust were puppets...

 

[boalio]

Actually I would support this post being made a sticky. I could see how the discussions here could be misinterpreted as an endorsement or 'how-to'.

 

[marinoni]

Great Post

I hope some kid reads this and thinks twice about doping. I doubt it but you never know. I actually had a bit of a doping experience a couple months ago. I was going out for a long hike and took a dose of non-drowzy allergy meds. Being an increasingly absent-minded old fart, I accidentally took another.
The result was astonishing. For 5 hours I flew over the hills. I'm 6'7" 220lbs with a dodgy hip, I don't fly over anything. Climbing up a long hill 3 hrs in, the only limit on my speed was how fast I could move my legs back and forth. It actually scared me because I knew what I was feeling wasnt real and I thought I might give myself a heart attack. This was just over the counter Claritin, what the hell happens when you take super-fuel like EPO!

 

[BroDeal]

I hope some kid reads this and thinks twice about doping. I doubt it but you never know. I actually had a bit of a doping experience a couple months ago. I was going out for a long hike and took a dose of non-drowzy allergy meds. Being an increasingly absent-minded old fart, I accidentally took another.
The result was astonishing. For 5 hours I flew over the hills. I'm 6'7" 220lbs with a dodgy hip, I don't fly over anything. Climbing up a long hill 3 hrs in, the only limit on my speed was how fast I could move my legs back and forth. It actually scared me because I knew what I was feeling wasnt real and I thought I might give myself a heart attack. This was just over the counter Claritin, what the hell happens when you take super-fuel like EPO!

Hmmm...I do a bunch of trail running...Claritin you say...

Okay, that is not in the spirit of this thread.

 

[stephens]

You want to know what makes doping sound attractive? It's all the posts on here from certain folks that claim things like 'Armstrong's natural hemocrit is 41 and he probably gets a 25% improvement at 46 and 50% improvement at 53,' or whatever it is that gets posted on here. My hemocrit is 39 and if I was a young racer instead of the old dude I now am, I'd be tempted by that kind of statement to get in on it.

So if you want to keep the kids off the dope, stop making it sound so damn effective.

 

[BigBoat]

Sites like http://www.Cuttingedgemuscle.com
are great for info and a must. Not only on dope but on training. EPO is a very very serious thing, Its not a toy, and it takes time and knowledge to use it safely. "Where to begin" is the thread:

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18910

"racing and training with a power meter"...

http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794

They need to use an SRM powermeter, be talented to some degree, motivated, and they must "want it bad" in order to make the decision to dope.

 

[BroDeal]

You want to know what makes doping sound attractive? It's all the posts on here from certain folks that claim things like 'Armstrong's natural hemocrit is 41 and he probably gets a 25% improvement at 46 and 50% improvement at 53,' or whatever it is that gets posted on here. My hemocrit is 39 and if I was a young racer instead of the old dude I now am, I'd be tempted by that kind of statement to get in on it.

So if you want to keep the kids off the dope, stop making it sound so damn effective.

It is effective. That is reality. It is very very effective, so much so that undoped riders in a long GT-like race don't stand a chance.

Will we stop cocaine use by trying to keep the fact that it makes you feel good a secret?

The effectiveness is the very reason it would be extremely difficult to stop the doping.

 

[Johnny Colnago]

It is effective. That is reality. It is very very effective, so much so that undoped riders in a long GT-like race don't stand a chance.

Will we stop cocaine use by trying to keep the fact that it makes you feel good a secret?

The effectiveness is the very reason it would be extremely difficult to stop the doping.

+1

The worst thing you can do is lie to a kid about drugs and their effects, he will know you're full of **** and never come back to you for advice again because he knows you're just going to lie to him.

 

[BroDeal]

+1

The worst thing you can do is lie to a kid about drugs and their effects, he will know you're full of **** and never come back to you for advice again because he knows you're just going to lie to him.

Actually I have a plan. It is damn near fool proof. Did you ever see the film "Reefer Madness"? All cycling fans will chip in and we will produce "PED Madness". We will show it in schools every year.

 

[unsheath]

Actually I have a plan. It is damn near fool proof. Did you ever see the film "Reefer Madness"? All cycling fans will chip in and we will produce "PED Madness". We will show it in schools every year.

Whilst preaching that cycling is still a pure and beautiful sport.

 

[sherer]

let's not forget that EPO \ CERA etc can also cuase your heartbeat to lower at night which can be fatal as has happened a number of times in the past. Plus should any unqualified idiot be buying something off a internet site they have found through google and inject who knows what into themselves

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

Reminds me of Indurain's resting pulse: 28 BPM

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I know it sherer, but people do just that.

CEM is a tough site, but anyone wanting to really look into the dark side should be there. It's so heavy over there I've been a member for a while and have like ten posts. Great place to lurk, and get enlightened. Some BS and repeat noob posts though to sift through. Sort of like this place I guess.

Power meters and HRM's are great training tools to help see gains. But I will say what I did before. Spend your money on a coach, a real one who will listen to you, and observe your progress. The cost will be worth it, especially if you are young and just getting into racing, or stuck on a Cat 3/4 level (like I was). Too many amateur riders do JRA training (Just Riding Around), logging miles that way, which is unfocused, sloppy even. Until you get into heart rate and power training on specific programs, you won't see much improvement. Being doped won't overcome that in entirety.

So if you want to keep the kids off the dope, stop making it sound so damn effective.

I'll echo what BroDeal did. Why hide the truth? I try instead to offer practical, safe, and legal alternatives that are effective. Such as good coaching. And as I said in the first post, altitude training. I'd encourage anyone on any level of cycling, even those only doing JRA training, and club or charity rides to try some altitude training. You spend two weeks sleeping and riding around Mammoth Lakes, Alma, Val Thorens, etc. getting in training on long climbs and uphill intervals, I guarantee you that when you get back down to under 2000', you will see gains that pleasantly surprise you.They won't last forever, but either does doping.

 

[WD-40.]

You want to know what makes doping sound attractive? It's all the posts on here from certain folks that claim things like 'Armstrong's natural hemocrit is 41 and he probably gets a 25% improvement at 46 and 50% improvement at 53,' or whatever it is that gets posted on here. My hemocrit is 39 and if I was a young racer instead of the old dude I now am, I'd be tempted by that kind of statement to get in on it.

So if you want to keep the kids off the dope, stop making it sound so damn effective.

Yep. If I was a newbie kid just getting into cycling and visited this forum I might very well be tempted to consider doping going by what is posted here. Thats not what we want is it?

If doping was not mentioned 24/7 I would strongly feel that less people would find it so encouraging. This goes for the media also.

You don't see the NFL or athletics forums stuffed to the brim full of doping talk.

 

[sherer]

I know it sherer, but people do just that.

CEM is a tough site, but anyone wanting to really look into the dark side should be there. It's so heavy over there I've been a member for a while and have like ten posts. Great place to lurk, and get enlightened. Some BS and repeat noob posts though to sift through. Sort of like this place I guess.

Power meters and HRM's are great training tools to help see gains. But I will say what I did before. Spend your money on a coach, a real one who will listen to you, and observe your progress. The cost will be worth it, especially if you are young and just getting into racing, or stuck on a Cat 3/4 level (like I was). Too many amateur riders do JRA training (Just Riding Around), logging miles that way, which is unfocused, sloppy even. Until you get into heart rate and power training on specific programs, you won't see much improvement. Being doped won't overcome that in entirety.


I'll echo what BroDeal did. Why hide the truth? I try instead to offer practical, safe, and legal alternatives that are effective. Such as good coaching. And as I said in the first post, altitude training. I'd encourage anyone on any level of cycling, even those only doing JRA training, and club or charity rides to try some altitude training. You spend two weeks sleeping and riding around Mammoth Lakes, Alma, Val Thorens, etc. getting in training on long climbs and uphill intervals, I guarantee you that when you get back down to under 2000', you will see gains that pleasantly surprise you.They won't last forever, but either does doping.

I must admit i'm guilty of the just riding around for my training. I have a few different routes I use for if I am trying to do a quick fast session or a longer distance session. I do see a slight bit of improvement but nothing major. I did look into a proper coach system but for a amateur who just rides sportives I didn't think the cost was worth it.

I did a search the other day for EPO and it was scary the results that came up. None of the sites even looked professional enough to warrant any money from anyone anyway. How on earth do you tell HGH what part of you you want to grow stronger ?

This stuff is available via doctors on prescriptions for a very good reason, no one should just be injecting \ taking tablets of these stuff without a doctor knowing what you are doing to your body

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

All true. That's how we end up with dead kids. Or even not-kids. But knowledge is power. Hopefully someone youthful won't log on here and stop at the thought that "doping equals big gains", and not look into it anymore. That was a big motivator for my creating this thread.

Found a good link for you guys.

Maps-n-stats lists the highest towns and cities in all 50 US states. I don't have a link for Europe, but I'm sure one exists. What's so great about this site is that if you're considering altitude training it's a great resource.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I think the cultural idea of doping is perhaps less important than the actual realities of racing at the top level.

In my part of the world as an elite / espoir amateur / semi pro there is a big talent pool and virtually no testing.

Criteriums are big money events and it is impossible for there to ever be a doping control there. There are a handful of older more "experienced" riders who are widely known to be doping. They only ride crits as there is a slight risk of being pulled for a control if you ride classics and stage races. these guys totally dominate crits.

so the message to young ambitious riders is: if you want to win a crit, make some money, make a name for yourself and get on a better team - maybe you have to take something.

The classics and stage races are also a farce. There was usually a "doping control" room at the race HQ, but I never saw anyone in it. In fact I used to head for this room to change and use the toilet, as it was always deserted.

Another issue is that quite a few ex pro riders who were busted for doping, or who didn't get contracts renewed end up riding on the best amateur teams. Their knowledge of "preparation" comes with them. Last year I rode a stage race in Belgium and one of the most influential riders in the peloton was "Doctor" Dave Bruylandts - riding in a team alongside Belgian Espoir riders.

It is from circumstances like this that the new generations of pro riders are emerging. The system is far more broken and dubious than the morality of the riders. They are just human.

 

[BigBoat]

I think the cultural idea of doping is perhaps less important than the actual realities of racing at the top level.

In my part of the world as an elite / espoir amateur / semi pro there is a big talent pool and virtually no testing.

Criteriums are big money events and it is impossible for there to ever be a doping control there. There are a handful of older more "experienced" riders who are widely known to be doping. They only ride crits as there is a slight risk of being pulled for a control if you ride classics and stage races. these guys totally dominate crits.

so the message to young ambitious riders is: if you want to win a crit, make some money, make a name for yourself and get on a better team - maybe you have to take something.

The classics and stage races are also a farce. There was usually a "doping control" room at the race HQ, but I never saw anyone in it. In fact I used to head for this room to change and use the toilet, as it was always deserted.

Another issue is that quite a few ex pro riders who were busted for doping, or who didn't get contracts renewed end up riding on the best amateur teams. Their knowledge of "preparation" comes with them. Last year I rode a stage race in Belgium and one of the most influential riders in the peloton was "Doctor" Dave Bruylandts - riding in a team alongside Belgian Espoir riders.

It is from circumstances like this that the new generations of pro riders are emerging. The system is far more broken and dubious than the morality of the riders. They are just human.

Yeah, I especially like the point you make about amateur teams being taken up by dope suspended pros and retired pros. Total reality eh.

 

[BigBoat]

Yep. If I was a newbie kid just getting into cycling and visited this forum I might very well be tempted to consider doping going by what is posted here. Thats not what we want is it?

If doping was not mentioned 24/7 I would strongly feel that less people would find it so encouraging. This goes for the media also.

You don't see the NFL or athletics forums stuffed to the brim full of doping talk.

You see I dont think it makes one negative difference to talk about it...Its funny I think.

If they were going to dope themselves they would do it in private and they would not go to "cyclingnews.com" To learn about doping. I didnt.

 

[sherer]

something I was thinking about after listening to a comment on Eurosport yesterday. Goin up one climbs the peleton were doing it at about 19 mph.

When I started training this year in April I was going 6-7 mph up the climbs, after a lot of training I have increased that to 9-10 mph and on a good day can get up a few shallower climbs at 11-12 mph. Quite a bit of improvement, although each year I end up losing too much over the cold winter.

Now I think if I keep up the training I can improve more. My problem is not having as much muscle and i'm not sure having extra red blood cells will help anyway as myh muscle will still be weak. My riding around has helped to improve me and that isn't even a focused plan

 

[Epicycle]

If they were going to dope themselves they would do it in private and they would not go to "cyclingnews.com" To learn about doping. I didnt.

No doubt. You get exposure to it when you get into the scene. I know my first exposure to doping was at 15 or 16 . Plus kids in their later teens are generally open to experimenting with drugs anyway.

 

[beroepsrenner]

In the 80s I was racing in belgium trying to make it as a pro. i was introduced to a world i would not have believed if I hadnt experienced it first hand. First let me point out that every cyclist that makes it to pro level is there because he is an above average athlete, doping just takes it to the next level.. The psychology of most elite sports people is one of singlemindedness in the pursuit of success where you will stop at nothing to achieve your goals. The ethics of what you are doing doesnt come into it. When 90% of the peloton is doping it is hardly cheating, the only ones being cheated are the spectators but thats another topic for discussion. It has been suggested elsewhere on this forum that doping makes thoroughbreds out of donkeys. Having myself used everything going at that time i can assure you of one thing. There is no sustitute for natural ability, hard work and the determination to win.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good post Beroepsrenner. I think that's why a lot of us on this forum don't always rail against dopers who get caught, but spend more time railing against those who either show absurd gains, or give incessant, often absurd denials, whether they've been caught or not.

If they were going to dope themselves they would do it in private and they would not go to "cyclingnews.com" To learn about doping. I didnt.

Is that a confession?