Indurain's physiology

[laziali]

Used to love watching Big Mig tearing the legs off Bugno, Chiappucci, Leblanc, Rominger etc. Assumed he was able to haul his 80kg carcass over the cols with the aid of some first gen EPO. Then I was reading another post here re Dim's cyclocross epic and was reminded that Indurain has a resting pulse of about 29, a lung capacity of 7 litres and a VO2 max above 90%.

Got me thinking. How does Big Mig's physiology rate compared to other GT winners? Maybe he was sufficiently freakish that he was able to win clean?

Thoughts? (apologies if this has been posted before - if so, a link would be great).

 

[Marcus135]

As far as i know he has such a HUGE natural advantage he would not have needed drugs to win. All he really did tho was sit with the top group in the mountains and then tear everyone apart in the TT winning by a few mins.

Example his VO2 max was 96, the average professional athlete has a VO2 max of 75. That advantage alone is AMAZINGLY advantageous. His natural body was enough of a drug to let him destroy everyone.

 

[hrotha]

If that chart of W/kg for the Tour winners in the 90s is any indication, it's possible Indurain wasn't taking EPO in 1991 and maybe 1992. He was a huge natural talent, but there's always the question of how much of a climber a huge natural talent who is also very heavy can be without external boosts.

 

[poupou]

In 199O he was producing an average of 390portoleau W, 3 years later it was 440W...
BTW his doctor was Padilla, the spanish Conconi !

 

[python]

.. his VO2 max was 96, the average professional athlete has a VO2 max of 75. That advantage alone is AMAZINGLY

let’s fix the misconceptions right away. yes, indurain had a huge engine but his VO2*max was 6.4ml/min or at 81 kg (per padilla et al) this yields =79 ml/kg/min

induarin physique has been known for at least 10 years.

this study by padilla et al has been quoted and referenced all over internet and this forum. unlike other world beaters, it tell us almost everything about his capacities.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/89/4/1522#T1

 

[laziali]

this study by padilla et al has been quoted and referenced all over internet and this forum. unlike other world beaters, it tell us almost everything about his capacities.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/89/4/1522#T1

Thanks Python. Only problem is I'm a lawyer not a scientist so it was all Greek to me What does it mean about Mig in layman's terms?

 

[sniper]

apologies for this less technical contribution to the discussion:

I'm quite skeptic: If he really had won the Tour without any peds, wouldn't it have been nice of him to step up now (or earlier) and fight for a clean sport, write a book about how clean he actually was, or in some other way criticize the doping practices? Look at Greg Lemond.
I think I would speak up, just like Greg, if I'd won the tour five times with a clean body, only to see everybody after me winning the tour with heavy cheating. I mean, obviously, that also reflects negatively on his legacy.

And whatabout Indurain's collapse in his final tour de france? Suddenly he was nowhere. I'm not quite sure though, whether that favors or disfavors a blooddoping-hypothesis...

 

[laziali]

apologies for this less technical contribution to the discussion:

I'm quite skeptic: If he really had won the Tour without any peds, wouldn't it have been nice of him to step up now (or earlier) and fight for a clean sport, write a book about how clean he actually was, or in some other way criticize the doping practices? Look at Greg Lemond.
I think I would speak up, just like Greg, if I'd won the tour five times with a clean body, only to see everybody after me winning the tour with heavy cheating. I mean, obviously, that also reflects negatively on his legacy.

And whatabout Indurain's collapse in his final tour de france? Suddenly he was nowhere. I'm not quite sure though, whether that favors or disfavors a blooddoping-hypothesis...

All good points. Not sure we are going to see a book anytime soon, tho. He gave "sleeping" as a hobby once, so not sure he the bookish type

 

[hrotha]

Just to clarify, I don't think there's any doubt Indurain doped before 1991. What I don't know is if he took EPO for his first Tour victory(ies). His performance, especially in the mountains, increased in subsequent Tours and by 1994 and 1995 he dominated even the best climbers.

 

[The Hitch]

apologies for this less technical contribution to the discussion:

I'm quite skeptic: If he really had won the Tour without any peds, wouldn't it have been nice of him to step up now (or earlier) and fight for a clean sport, write a book about how clean he actually was, or in some other way criticize the doping practices? Look at Greg Lemond.
I think I would speak up, just like Greg, if I'd won the tour five times with a clean body, only to see everybody after me winning the tour with heavy cheating. I mean, obviously, that also reflects negatively on his legacy.

And whatabout Indurain's collapse in his final tour de france? Suddenly he was nowhere. I'm not quite sure though, whether that favors or disfavors a blooddoping-hypothesis...

If he won the Tour 5 times clean (and i doubt its a possible feat from 1990 onwards) maybe he would just be happy to know that he did so taking no risks, and knowing that while all the other winners will be fighting potential side effects to their heavy drug use throughout their lives, he gets off free. Also, he is a quiet stoic character, maybe he figures its best to remain a legendary tour champ, rather than get tarnished in doping arguments.

Thats just a thought, i personally dont think Mig was clean, especially doing the Giro Tour double twice.

On a previous discussion someone said that Mig reported getting up in the night to shake his legs, and that this would tie in with a high hematocrit, because your blood is thicker and might not travel as easily through the body. I dont know if thats true, but someone said it.

 

[redtreviso]

I think Mig was always dirty, but he always showed the tour and the sport some respect by not doing as Riis did at Hautacam or what LA did at Sestriere. In 1990 at Luz Ardiden mig and everyone else should have known it was his for the taking. I don't buy the loyal to delgado explanation for him not contending earlier, it was just a matter of him not wanting to look like a douche, nevermind getting caught.

 

[TERMINATOR]

I think Mig was always dirty, but he always showed the tour and the sport some respect by not doing as Riis did at Hautacam or what LA did at Sestriere. In 1990 at Luz Ardiden mig and everyone else should have known it was his for the taking. I don't buy the loyal to delgado explanation for him not contending earlier, it was just a matter of him not wanting to look like a douche, nevermind getting caught.

Your definition of respect is quite frivolous.

 

[Orinda8]

I would like to know what his hematocrit was while he was racing. Was it just below the cutoff value, and what is his current hematocrit;it should be the same now as it was then if he was not doping.

 

[scribe]

I think Mig was always dirty, but he always showed the tour and the sport some respect by not doing as Riis did at Hautacam or what LA did at Sestriere. In 1990 at Luz Ardiden mig and everyone else should have known it was his for the taking. I don't buy the loyal to delgado explanation for him not contending earlier, it was just a matter of him not wanting to look like a douche, nevermind getting caught.

Smashing the contenders by minutes in an ITT is just as garish as blasting up a mountain. I don't see how one dirty performance is classier than another.

 

[redtreviso]

Your definition of respect is quite frivolous.

Why? He dominated with his strength in the TT, maybe too much, but he didn't indulge in the preposterous by sprinting away in the mountains. After Riis no one cared what it looked like. Might as well see some slag from the groupetto win.

 

[JRTinMA]

He was a Conconi client, I would think that says it all. That said, he was a great tour champion so what if he was doped.

 

[Race Radio]

Indurian used Padilla and Conconi....I doubt this was for interval workouts. Most likely he participated in the team wide doping program his teammate Thomas Davy said Banesto ran at the time.

It took a few years to figure out how best to use EPO with a full program. One of the key issues was the limitations of the body to absorb the extra oxygen transported by the blood. With limited muscle mass much of the benefit was wasted, as evidence of large pack of rider climb au bloc while registering little effort in their face.

It should be no surprise that during the EPO era that riders with high muscle density showed the greatest benefit from the drug. Indurain, Riis, Armstrong, Ulrich all showed out sized improvement. Pantani's masseuse, Roberto Pregnolato, said that Marco was the most densely muscled rider he had ever work on. He had muscles on top of muscles.

 

[scribe]

He had muscles on top of muscles.

He must be from Brussels.

 

[blutto]

let’s fix the misconceptions right away. yes, indurain had a huge engine but his VO2*max was 6.4ml/min or at 81 kg (per padilla et al) this yields =79 ml/kg/min

induarin physique has been known for at least 10 years.

this study by padilla et al has been quoted and referenced all over internet and this forum. unlike other world beaters, it tell us almost everything about his capacities.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/89/4/1522#T1

...thanks for bringing that article to my attention...a great read, though some of it, is as someone else pointed out, is pretty greek..

...what is especially interesting is how Indurain and his magic numbers colour discussions of his use/non-use of PED materials...in that regard I have some numbers of my own that may or may not help put some of these numbers into perspective...

...to start...I have to admit that Indurain was a fave of mine...the style, the personality were real draws...but what really fascinated me was that we shared several key physiological traits...and given that and that he raced at his level, and me at mine, left me with some questions about what really are the keys to cycling success...

...in some basic ways my physiology matched Indurain...I'm the same height and a relatively big guy with heavier musculature ( my weight playing college football was about 91 kg. and I could full squat 188 kg triples..and could do a 4.6 40 in full equipment.. )...my race weight became about 80 kg...my lung capacity was maybe a hair larger...a VO2 in the high 70s....hematocrit levels were in the high 40s...had a high pain threshold...and was blessed with a world-class coach....

...as a cyclist I was ok...I could time trial...I could sprint...and on a rouleur course I could do real well...but I was no Indurain...not by a long long long shot...

...now, granted, I did have a wicked case of asthma and seasonal allergies which would regularly destroy major parts of my season...and I never used drugs not even legal inhalers ( I had this bee in my bonnet about drugs at the time and steadfastly refused absolutely everything....though later in life when I finally started using inhalers I was blown away by the difference they made...so the Rominger story about allergy relief may have some real merit, but that is another story... )

....so I guess what I'm trying to say here is that numbers are great...and they are a great starting point for a discussion...but they are only that...

....there were, for instance, guys I rode with that had terrible numbers and they did well...some guys had off-the-scale numbers( way better than mine which on the surface were pretty good ) and did nothing but come up with good excuses (...one guy especially, that had Merckx/Indurain numbers and he sucked big time...race horse in training, donkey in races...no cojones was his accepted major malfunction.. )...

....yes we would like to have definitive proof...and numbers seem to provide that...but there may be something else in the mix that makes great ones great that is either hidden in the numbers or is simply beyond them...my wife who did her grad work in excercise physiology( specializing in test protocols) says the numbers are only an educated guess, that at best give you 75% of the answer...maybe she is right...and I mean she is right about everything else...

...thank you for your time, and patience, hope this rambling piece helped somewhat...

Cheers

blutto

 

[Aguirre]

another **** thread but you guys, the saint inquisition of anti-doping.

you don't consider Miguel quit cycling (at 31) after being beaten by Mr.60%, and because he felt he could't do anything against dopers and EPO.

He quit cycling before the **** can came, just after Miguel:

so Miguel was the biggest and the last champion before Festina, Ullrich, Pantani, LA and the EPO generation.

But I stop cause this thread sucks

Why not a thread about Eddy Merckxs and doping? Maybe Hinault? Coppi?

 

[hrotha]

another **** thread but you guys, the saint inquisition of anti-doping.

you don't consider Miguel quit cycling (at 31) after being beaten by Mr.60%, and because he felt he could't do anything against dopers and EPO.

He quit cycling before the **** can came, just after Miguel:

so Miguel was the biggest and the last champion before Festina, Ullrich, Pantani, LA and the EPO generation.

But I stop cause this thread sucks

Why not a thread about Eddy Merckxs and doping? Maybe Hinault? Coppi?

True.
Berzin also won clean before the EPO generation, and then he quickly faded away because he couldn't keep up with the dopers. The same happened to most of his teammates, that's why Batik was mediocre compared to Gewiss (they were clean at Gewiss). The EPO generation began in 1997.

How ignorant can you be?

 

[sniper]

another **** thread but you guys, the saint inquisition of anti-doping.

you don't consider Miguel quit cycling (at 31) after being beaten by Mr.60%, and because he felt he could't do anything against dopers and EPO.

He quit cycling before the **** can came, just after Miguel:

so Miguel was the biggest and the last champion before Festina, Ullrich, Pantani, LA and the EPO generation.

But I stop cause this thread sucks

Why not a thread about Eddy Merckxs and doping? Maybe Hinault? Coppi?

You're making some good points.
But why are you Spanish always taking these things personally?
Spanish sports would have done itself a big favor by properly clearing up the Fuentes-case.... Since they preferred to cover it up, Spanish sports is now basically reaping what it sowed...

 

[roundabout]

another **** thread but you guys, the saint inquisition of anti-doping.

you don't consider Miguel quit cycling (at 31) after being beaten by Mr.60%, and because he felt he could't do anything against dopers and EPO.

He quit cycling before the **** can came, just after Miguel:

so Miguel was the biggest and the last champion before Festina, Ullrich, Pantani, LA and the EPO generation.

But I stop cause this thread sucks

Why not a thread about Eddy Merckxs and doping? Maybe Hinault? Coppi?

grow a thicker skin

1989

http://www.cyclismag.com/photos/lemond1989_20060711180727.jpg

1994

http://www.cyclismag.com/photos/indurain1994_20060711180721.jpg

 

[scribe]

1 post to 1000, roundabout. Let it rip!

 

[The Hitch]

Why not a thread about Eddy Merckxs and doping? Maybe Hinault? Coppi?

Im guessing because Indurain was in the EPO era.