Insulin

[Altitude]

I understand that insulin is a hot drug for body builders, as it is a powerful anabolic agent useful for increasing muscle mass. However I've also heard several cases of cyclists using the drug - Pantani, Ullrich, Landis to name a few. Considering that putting on muscle mass is harmful to a cyclists performance (especially for a climber like Pantani), I'm wondering how it would be beneficial. Is it more of a recovery thing, similar to growth hormone?

 

[WD-40.]

I understand that insulin is a hot drug for body builders, as it is a powerful anabolic agent useful for increasing muscle mass. However I've also heard several cases of cyclists using the drug - Pantani, Ullrich, Landis to name a few. Considering that putting on muscle mass is harmful to a cyclists performance (especially for a climber like Pantani), I'm wondering how it would be beneficial. Is it more of a recovery thing, similar to growth hormone?

It is not worth the risk at all with major misconceptions in the bodybuilding world regarding it's effectiveness, it is also an excellent hormone for adding fat mass.

It is the most dangerous PED by a long way, at least the most dangerous commonly used drug. It makes EPO super safe by comparison and should not under ANY circumstances be used irresponsibly as death could easily occur due to a sudden and severe drop in blood sugar. The drop comes on so fast especially with Humalog which is the fastest acting insulin, you may feel weak and want to lie down for a few minutes never to wake up.

I guess a nerve was touched here with me. Bottom line is that insulin is not effective in reality but is hideously dangerous with death being a VERY real threat. it's no joke and I do not want some kid to get any ideas thinking that it has PED benefits as a cyclist.

 

[Tank Engine]

It is not worth the risk at all with major misconceptions in the bodybuilding world regarding it's effectiveness, it is also an excellent hormone for adding fat mass.

It is the most dangerous PED by a long way, at least the most dangerous commonly used drug. It makes EPO super safe by comparison and should not under ANY circumstances be used irresponsibly as death could easily occur due to a sudden and severe drop in blood sugar. The drop comes on so fast especially with Humalog which is the fastest acting insulin, you may feel weak and want to lie down for a few minutes never to wake up.

I guess a nerve was touched here with me. Bottom line is that insulin is not effective in reality but is hideously dangerous with death being a VERY real threat. it's no joke and I do not want some kid to get any ideas thinking that it has PED benefits as a cyclist.

Exactly. My dad has been diabetic and had to inject insulin for years to control his sugar level. Although the advances in technology have improved control, he checks his sugar level a couple of times daily. When your pace of life changes for some reason (holiday or stress), it becomes harder to control your sugar level. Mixing insulin with six hour races is a very dangerous cocktail.

 

[Stingray34]

Didn't VDB use this stuff to OD? Was that just a rumour?

 

[Race Radio]

I assume you are talking about IGF-1. It is a very effective and commonly used PED, although recent advances in testing has slowed it's use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin-like_growth_factor_1

 

[lean mean &green]

I understand that insulin is a hot drug for body builders, as it is a powerful anabolic agent useful for increasing muscle mass. However I've also heard several cases of cyclists using the drug - Pantani, Ullrich, Landis to name a few. Considering that putting on muscle mass is harmful to a cyclists performance (especially for a climber like Pantani), I'm wondering how it would be beneficial. Is it more of a recovery thing, similar to growth hormone?

there's an important distinction to be made. Insulin and Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) are two different things. Both are being abused but the former is used to manipulate carbohydrate metabolism and the latter is used more for it's anabolic effects. I don't have time to explain, i gotta go ride but i'll link to pretty good explanations on wiki.

Insulin

IGF-1

Although someone already mentioned it I'd like to emphasize that mistakes with insulin can turn out very bad in a hurry. Timing is just as important as dosing. No one should be playing with it to win an athletic event.

 

[lean mean &green]

I assume you are talking about IGF-1. It is a very effective and commonly used PED, although recent advances in testing has slowed it's use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin-like_growth_factor_1

sorry RR, i think we were typing simultaneously.

 

[Altitude]

That's the thing. I know that the risk of going hypo and dying is quite high, which is why I'm wondering why a cyclist would bother with it in the first place.

I am talking about insulin, not IGF-1. I remember some IGF-1 was turned up in a police raid in Belgium not too long ago.

 

[Altitude]

It is the most dangerous PED by a long way, at least the most dangerous commonly used drug. It makes EPO super safe by comparison and should not under ANY circumstances be used irresponsibly as death could easily occur due to a sudden and severe drop in blood sugar. The drop comes on so fast especially with Humalog which is the fastest acting insulin, you may feel weak and want to lie down for a few minutes never to wake up.

Yeah, it's right up there with PFC in terms of instant risk. But PFC has powerful oxygen carrying properties, very useful for a cyclist. Insulin on the other hand I do not quite understand.

 

[WD-40.]

Yeah, it's right up there with PFC in terms of instant risk. But PFC has powerful oxygen carrying properties, very useful for a cyclist. Insulin on the other hand I do not quite understand.

Probably a darn sight more dangerous than PFC to most. It is thought to shuttle more amino acids to the muscles and is thought to help replenish glycogen stores. It can cause insulin resistance leading to ineffectiveness over time in exactly the same way that constant eating and overeating carbohydrates does, actually most people in the western world suffer from this due to an abundance of food.

If you want to kill yourself then take several units of insulin on an empty stomach, this will kill most it is that simple. Thankfully it is a near useless PED anyway.

 

[spalco]

You can bet if it did work 90% of endurance athletes would suddenly be diagnosed with diabetes mysteriously.

 

[WD-40.]

)

You can bet if it did work 90% of endurance athletes would suddenly be diagnosed with diabetes mysteriously.

Not really, only if they are reckless and if they are reckless with near constant insulin use then insulin will lose its effectiveness and so becoming insulin resistant is not in the interests of health or athletic performance, the two go hand in hand in this case.

Cortizone like insulin is also not safe with anything more than infrequent use. For athletic performance it must be used sparingly (much, much less frequently than insulin) frequent use is a recipe for disaster and will very much damage health and athletic performance, at least in the short term. Many reckless endurance athletes in the past and dare I say present have suffered from hypoadrenalism due to the negative feedback loop of the exogenous cortizone (until natural cortisol production is regained) which is not a pleasant state to experience for a while. Anyway rambling on again.

 

[Altitude]

It was also included in the drug regimens of many athletes implicated in Balco, so it must have some athletic benefit.

 

[lean mean &green]

It was also included in the drug regimens of many athletes implicated in Balco, so it must have some athletic benefit.

i think it does have some benefit. i think endurance athletes are using it to increase muscle glycogen stores. the philosophy is to carbo-load with greater intensity. it's sometimes called "clamping" but should not be confused with legitimate diagnostics of the same name.

i didn't have time to do a real thorough search but here's a quick link:

http://sweatscience.com/carbo-loading-with-a-hyperglycemic-hyperinsulinemic-glucose-clamp/

it's always important to realize that doping with this level of complexity involves many interactions so studies looking at just a few variables might not reflect real world gains. i honestly don't know how effective the technique is.

 

[T_S_A_R]

It was also included in the drug regimens of many athletes implicated in Balco, so it must have some athletic benefit.

i recall the uk drug testing people had no idea why chambers was taking insulin. conte had to explain it to them.

THG is a previously undetectable designer steroid nicknamed "the clear." It was primarily used in the off season and was taken two days per week, typically on Mondays and Wednesdays. Generally, these were the two most intense weight-training days of the week. The purpose was to accelerate healing and tissue repair. Thirty units (IU) of the liquid was place under the tongue during the morning time-frame. THG was used in cycles of "three weeks on and one week off."

Testosterone/epitestosterone cream was also primarily used during the off season. It was rubbed into the skin on the front of the forearm two days per week, typically Tuesdays and Thursdays. The dosage was ½ gram which contained 50mg of testosterone and 2.5mg of epitestosterone (20 to 1 ratio). The purpose was to offset the suppression of endogenous testosterone caused by the use of the THG and to accelerate recovery. The testosterone/epitestosterone cream was also used in cycles of three weeks on and one week off.

EPO was used three days per week during the "corrective phase", which is the first two weeks of a cycle. Typically, it was on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. It was only used once per week during the "maintenance phase" thereafter, typically this was every Wednesday. The dosage was 4,000 IU per injection. The purpose was to increase the red blood cell count and enhance oxygen uptake and utilization. This substance provides a big advantage to sprinters because it enables them to do more track repetitions and obtain a much deeper training load during the off season. EPO becomes undetectable about 72 hours after subcutaneous injection (stomach) and only 24 hours after intravenous injection.

HGH was used three nights per week, typically on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. Each injection would contain 4.5 units of growth hormone. Once again, this substance was used primarily during the off season to help with recovery from very strenuous weight training sessions.

Insulin was used after strenuous weight training sessions during the off season. Three units of Humalog (fast-acting insulin) were injected immediately after the workout sessions together with a powdered drink that contained 30 grams of dextrose, 30 grams of whey protein isolates and 3 grams of creatine. The purpose was to quickly replenish glycogen, resynthesize ATP and promote protein synthesis and muscle growth. Insulin acts as a "shuttle system" in the transport of glucose and branch chain amino acids. There is no test available for insulin at this time.

Modafinil was used as a "wakefulness promoting" agent before competitions. The purpose was to decrease fatigue and enhance mental alertness and reaction time. A 200mg tablet was consumed one hour before competition.

Liothryonine was used help accelerate the basic metabolic rate before competitions. The purpose was to reduce sluggishness and increase quickness. Two 25mg tablets were taken one hour before competition. There is no test available for liothryonine at this time.

 

[Altitude]

)
Cortizone like insulin is also not safe with anything more than infrequent use. For athletic performance it must be used sparingly (much, much less frequently than insulin) frequent use is a recipe for disaster and will very much damage health and athletic performance, at least in the short term. Many reckless endurance athletes in the past and dare I say present have suffered from hypoadrenalism due to the negative feedback loop of the exogenous cortizone (until natural cortisol production is regained) which is not a pleasant state to experience for a while. Anyway rambling on again.

Yeah, Voet mentions this in Breaking the Chain. Didn't stop them from injecting Virenque and co like every other day

 

[blackcat]

I understand that insulin is a hot drug for body builders, as it is a powerful anabolic agent useful for increasing muscle mass. However I've also heard several cases of cyclists using the drug - Pantani, Ullrich, Landis to name a few. Considering that putting on muscle mass is harmful to a cyclists performance (especially for a climber like Pantani), I'm wondering how it would be beneficial. Is it more of a recovery thing, similar to growth hormone?

I asked FL. HE said he did NOT use this. He did say he used clen once.

But I thought that insulin was primarily recovery, forcing glycogen into the cells over a depleted day.

hgh, igf-1, testo, hgh for recovery. But I think igf-1 works as an agonist versus the others, one of those drugs works to defeat the others, so wont be stacked. But I thought they stacked testo, hgh, and insulin for recovery.

Someone fill us in, please

 

[blackcat]

there's an important distinction to be made. Insulin and Insulin-like growth factor (IGF-1) are two different things. Both are being abused but the former is used to manipulate carbohydrate metabolism and the latter is used more for it's anabolic effects. I don't have time to explain, i gotta go ride but i'll link to pretty good explanations on wiki.

Insulin

IGF-1

Although someone already mentioned it I'd like to emphasize that mistakes with insulin can turn out very bad in a hurry. Timing is just as important as dosing. No one should be playing with it to win an athletic event.

I have a theory an AFL footballer went into anaphylactic insulin shock after a training session this year, they said it was a penecillin anaphylactic shock, but I had a suspicion it may have been insulin.

 

[L'arriviste]

I understand that insulin is a hot drug for body builders, as it is a powerful anabolic agent useful for increasing muscle mass. However I've also heard several cases of cyclists using the drug - Pantani, Ullrich, Landis to name a few. Considering that putting on muscle mass is harmful to a cyclists performance (especially for a climber like Pantani), I'm wondering how it would be beneficial. Is it more of a recovery thing, similar to growth hormone?

Interesting discussion here. A fully sourced list that I've researched (i.e. one does not contain rumours, hearsay etc) of insulin users on the European road scene can be found here:

http://www.dopeology.org/products/Insulin/

 

[WD-40.]

Yeah, Voet mentions this in Breaking the Chain. Didn't stop them from injecting Virenque and co like every other day

It is of my opinion that Voet stretched the truth in his book and did not really understand in depth much of what he was doing at the time or what he was later writing about.

 

[WillemS]

I think one of the problems with insulin is that it's quite a common drug, almost everybody knows someone in his environment who uses it to threat diabetes. It may therefore seem that it is relatively safe to use. However, there are indications that the probability of hypoglycaemia (lower than normal blood sugar levels) caused by insulin injection is greater for non-diabetics than diabetics, possibly due to insulin-resistance in diabetes patients (Stapczynski & Haskell, 1984). (However, it is worthy to note that these observations are made after intentional insulin overdoses and might therefore not be generalized to the lower dosages used in doping.)

The use of insulin may thus even be more dangerous for non-diabetes patients than patients. Another thing that should be added is that hypoglycaemia can lead to permanent brain damage and not only the more common transient disturbances of brain function. There are even indications that very brief instances of hypoglycaemia can have long lasting effects, although the probabilities are low. Therefore, injection insulin when glucose levels are low (after exercise) may lead to problems if the individual fails to take sugars.

 

[WD-40.]

Interesting discussion here. A fully sourced list that I've researched (i.e. one does not contain rumours, hearsay etc) of insulin users on the European road scene can be found here:

http://www.dopeology.org/products/Insulin/

The dopeology link is not very enlightening to me though thanks for posting it anyway.

The main issue with most of the posters on this forum is that they really do not understand the complex interactions of the hormones used and have a very shallow and one sided knowledge of doping and health. Knowledge greatly changes opinions and prevents one from being led down the wrong path and misguided. If enough time and effort is being used to study extensively then accurate conclusions can be drawn. Accurate conclusions are seldom seen on this forum unfortunately though I do my best to keep things on track from time to time.

Not bitc**ng but saying it as truthfully as I can.

 

[WD-40.]

I think one of the problems with insulin is that it's quite a common drug, almost everybody knows someone in his environment who uses it to threat diabetes. It may therefore seem that it is relatively safe to use.

It is well known in the bodybuilding world that it is a very dangerous substance, there are very many warnings on this and it's usage is discussed frequently. But yes the uninformed may not be aware of it's danger as it is so widely used by diabetics.

The use of insulin may thus even be more dangerous for non-diabetes patients than patients.

Very true, the reason that the healthy athlete (or anyone without significant insulin resistance) is more susceptible to its danger is that they are more sensitive to it and less goes much further.

If a healthy person would take 10 iu of quick acting insulin as many type 2 diabetes patients do everyday, that healthy person would likely be killed if they did not eat within a short time after administrating.

Some athletes have been incredibly foolish in the past and I have read numerous stories of close calls including one of a reasonably respected bodybuilder who in his less sensible years injected several units of Humalog before planning to eat carbs only to get distracted by a phonecall and forget to eat... He collapsed and was extremely lucky that a family member was there to call 911 and get help straightaway which he thankfully got in a very short space of time which without question saved his life.

Carbohydrates are to be taken before insulin is administered to prevent an accident or a dangerous distraction like this occuring when carbs are not ingested with insulin.

 

[L'arriviste]

The dopeology link is not very enlightening to me though thanks for posting it anyway.

The main issue with most of the posters on this forum is that they really do not understand the complex interactions of the hormones used and have a very shallow and one sided knowledge of doping and health. Knowledge greatly changes opinions and prevents one from being led down the wrong path and misguided. If enough time and effort is being used to study extensively then accurate conclusions can be drawn. Accurate conclusions are seldom seen on this forum unfortunately though I do my best to keep things on track from time to time.

Not bitc**ng but saying it as truthfully as I can.

I can appreciate that the link was not useful to you but the OP was throwing names out there so I wanted to help with that.

It is true enough that most users do not "understand the complex interactions of the hormones used" but this is a cycling forum for public use and users here may come from all walks of life. In view of that fact, I'm afraid your post does come off sounding like *******ng though I'm sure you meant well.

I provided a bit of evidence to OP and you have been discussing science, which is useful, informative and, as you rightly state, quite necessary. Let's just keep working through it.

 

[WD-40.]

I can appreciate that the link was not useful to you but the OP was throwing names out there so I wanted to help with that.
In view of that fact, I'm afraid your post does come off sounding like *******ng though I'm sure you meant well.

I understand I can sound like a arrogant a$$ at times I really don't mean to but it just happens I guess.

No problem with the link I know you meant well.

Best