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Is pro racing getting more dangerous?

Is it getting more dangerous?

  • Yes

    Votes: 9 14.3%
  • No

    Votes: 45 71.4%
  • More accidents but only due to more races and riders

    Votes: 5 7.9%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 4 6.3%

  • Total voters
    63
May 31, 2023
34
26
130
Making a little poll because of the fatal accident of Gino Mäder.

I do have a feeling we are seeing more really bad crashes, most of them fortunately not fatal, but it feels we are seeing more bad injuries like broken hips, spine injuries and stuff like that.

But are data supporting that the sport is getting more dangerous? Or is there just more coverage and more races?

If yes what could be a reason: faster and more aggresive riders? More "spectacular" routes?

some riders in the past did complain about unnecessarily dangerous routes but not sure if actually got more dangerous.

And if yes what could be done to make it less dangerous?
 
Making a little poll because of the fatal accident of Gino Mäder.

I do have a feeling we are seeing more really bad crashes, most of them fortunately not fatal, but it feels we are seeing more bad injuries like broken hips, spine injuries and stuff like that.

But are data supporting that the sport is getting more dangerous? Or is there just more coverage and more races?

If yes what could be a reason: faster and more aggresive riders? More "spectacular" routes?

some riders in the past did complain about unnecessarily dangerous routes but not sure if actually got more dangerous.

And if yes what could be done to make it less dangerous?

Apart from Mader, can you name the 'more really bad crashes' ?

People on Twitter asking for races with finishes at the bottom of a descent I assume have just totally disregarded MSR? Look at the risk some riders take that descent.

I think people need to just chill out. What's happeened to the lad is heartbreaking. But how many descents have been taken in racing this seaosn alone? How many deaths or retirements from the sport due to it?

That benji who wants descents categorising. The kid is just out of nappies man. He's probably jumped on the Skineos band wagon and become an 'influencer' Pack it in mate with suggestions like that. Go back to football.
 
In a lot of ways it’s gotten safer, but it seems route design has been more in favor of showing all aspects of racing, and that does make it more dangerous. There are times when even the TDF organizers seemed almost gleeful when announcing the route about possible carnage on a sprint finish etc… which can end a riders career if not their life with a bad crash.

But that’s the thing- the sport is dangerous. You can promote helmets and safety measures on a bike, but you can’t regulate a riders willingness to take risks and it is even celebrated.

Hell look at Nibali at the 2016 Giro. His descending ability forced SK to ride above his descending skills and straight into a snow patch, and we celebrated him for it. That could have been much much worse with only luck that Steven crashed at that point and not going off the damn mountain. That was dangerous. The sport has always glorified the daredevil attacks and nothing is going to change that.
 
You'd need to look at all DNFs for the past ~20 editions of major stage races (basically from the point when helmets were mandated onwards as cycling was definitely more dangerous before that), figure out which ones were due to crashes, calculate as a % of field size and then see whether there's a statistically significant correlation with time to get an objective answer to this question. But who would ever have the time and willingness for that?
 
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From memory, I think this was the most serious accident to happen in the last 10km of a stage.

Kivilev, Demoitié, Weylandt, Casartelli, Lambrecht, all happened in the middle of the stage. Serious injuries like the ones sustained by Broeckx and Keegan Girdlestone, I believe happened also far from the finish.

And some serious descent crashes that I remember from previous GTs (Kruijswijk - Giro 2016, Zakarin - Giro 2016, Gilbert - Tour 2018 or 2019, etc.) all have happened descending to another climb.

I honestly don't remember, apart from maybe Beloki in 2003 (I think Voigt in 2011(?) also), another serious crash happening in a descent so close to the finish. But maybe it's my memory, does anyone have some data or remembers some incidents?
 
I can't say if it's more or less dangerous - but you can argue that any improvement in race safety, like better roads, helmets and shorter stages, has been offset by technology like disc brakes, aero wheels and frames etc that increase speed. I have a vintage bike with Mafacs and friction shifting and a noodly steel frame, as well as a an aero carbon bike, and I take risks on my newer bike that I wouldn't on the old tech. So maybe the result is net zero...
 
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From memory, I think this was the most serious accident to happen in the last 10km of a stage.

Kivilev, Demoitié, Weylandt, Casartelli, Lambrecht, all happened in the middle of the stage. Serious injuries like the ones sustained by Broeckx and Keegan Girdlestone, I believe happened also far from the finish.

And some serious descent crashes that I remember from previous GTs (Kruijswijk - Giro 2016, Zakarin - Giro 2016, Gilbert - Tour 2018 or 2019, etc.) all have happened descending to another climb.

I honestly don't remember, apart from maybe Beloki in 2003 (I think Voigt in 2011(?) also), another serious crash happening in a descent so close to the finish. But maybe it's my memory, does anyone have some data or remembers some incidents?
Not quite the same but Jakobsen. I was sure I just saw someone die with his accident
 
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Its getting safer, but lets be honest, the way these guys race is making it dangerous. Races are now decided by seconds rather than minutes. We're incredibly lucky this doesn't happen more often. Never mind dodgy descents (the one yesterday wasn't), just stop and think about the pile ups we've seen this year alone.
 
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I'm not going to vote, because this should not be a "voting matter" but it should be investigated with conclusions based on facts.
I think it’s still worth seeing public perception. Then compare it to actual data, which someone will eventually do the research on at some point. With most of these topics the public perception is that risk is higher than it is and the data shows otherwise, but I’d like to see the data.
 
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May 31, 2023
34
26
130
You'd need to look at all DNFs for the past ~20 editions of major stage races (basically from the point when helmets were mandated onwards as cycling was definitely more dangerous before that), figure out which ones were due to crashes, calculate as a % of field size and then see whether there's a statistically significant correlation with time to get an objective answer to this question. But who would ever have the time and willingness for that?
Probably a project for a masters degree thesis of a college student or something like that. Or maybe a study done by scientists paid by UCI. Ideally injuries would be grouped in severity categories and then long term trends would be observed. Not sure how available those data are, you could of course search newspapers for every DNF to see if you find some kind of injury description ( like he abandoned with a broken collarbone).

Doing that over a 10 plus year time frame would definitely be hundreds of hours of work but especially if you could correlate that to causes of the fall (what terrain did it happen in, was the road slippery, was it overly aggressive riding and so on) maybe UCI could learn something to make races safer.

Of course there is never going to be 100% safety but I'm sure with a good research you could find patterns of increased risk and adjust rules and courses.
 
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La Gazzetta dello Sport posted an article on their website about the 10 deaths during races (don't ask me if this is the total fatal incidents in cycling), and the first occured in the 1935 Tour, when a rider descending the Galibier went off the side of the mountain much as Gino did yesterday. Also discussed were Simpson on Mount Ventoux in the 67 Tour, Casartelli and Weylandt, noting that each decade has had its victim.

It's a fact that fatal crashes in cycling are very rare, but that they happen at all is testimony to the inherent dangers of the sport. Is cycling more dangerous than before? I don't know, but I suspect, given that fatal race incidents or those resulting in serious injury have not increased significantly since the first death during a race in 1935, I'd say not really.

Frankly I'm more concerned about the situation out on the roads during training rides. Population growth and increased automobile traffic, has made training outside increasingly dangerous. But apart from trying to educate drivers and riders towards peacefull coexistance on the roads, I fear it's only going to get worse.
 
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Fact is it needs to be safer regardless of the trend. How to achieve that is another question. I don’t think yesterdays descent stood out as particularly dangerous but there are plenty of examples of stages on very bad surface with many “traps” along the way.
 
A Lot of posters here have blood on their hands. Things like that are the result of new school fans calling for ever more close spectacular racing on ever more steep mountains and above all, descents. Actually it is a miracle that things like that dont occure more frequently.
Condemning descents as a thing of new school fans and mentioning it in connection with steep mountains is a strong anachronism, especially considering your usual views. I do not understand why the descent finish is being attacked as a way of creating ever-new spectacle by people like Remco in an interview or you here, while simultaneously being the by far earliest form of mountain stage design.
When Coppi among others climbed Alpe d‘Huez in 1952, the press was unimpressed by how everyone seemed to wait for the last climb. It has given us many incredible races, yet is somehow a product of evil.
 
It's not that racing is more or less dangerous, it's that the risks have changed and the sport has to react to that. Holding a poll on this type of subject at a highly emotionally charged time when the sport has just seen a rider die in an accident is not going to beget objective, dispassionate responses either.

Road safety as a general rule of thumb has largely improved and cycling infrastructure as a result has improved across a large number of countries where the sport is popular. However, races do not take place on roads in their usual form, they take place on closed roads or under rolling roadblock conditions, and a lot of that infrastructure that is there to keep pedestrians, cyclists and motorists safe on the other 364 days of the year can become dangerous in a pro cycling context - as seen from accidents created by avoiding road furniture, getting hung up on the wrong side of barriers, having to hop across reservations and verges and so on.

Issues like were involved in Casartelli's death have been legislated against; helmets are now mandatory. We also see fewer (although they haven't been eradicated) of the type of concrete bollards and blocks in town that were seen in Kivilev's case. But those risks will never be eradicated. Hell, motorsport can't take risk out and they can use closed, purpose-built venues with all manner of high-tech safety infrastructure. Professional road cycling is a sport in the same vein as the Isle of Man TT or the Pikes Peak Hillclimb - while we can continue at all times to make it safer we will never truly succeed in making it safe.

Whether this has any bearing on Mäder's crash is a moot point, but I do feel that the ongoing Premier Leagueification of cycling does play a role in the current shape of risk and danger in the sport. I've railed against this numerous times, but that's usually from the point of view of its impact on the spectacle; this has got me thinking about its impact from a safety point of view as well, however. The ever-increasing professionalism in the sport has massively reduced the gap between the best and worst rider in a top level pro race, but also the way the UCI's tour systems, points systems and so on work has incentivised a very top-heavy infrastructure where teams outside of the top tier (plus the top 2 from the second tier who were part of the battle for licences) have significantly dropped away in competitiveness; the concurrent falling out of the bottom line in Spanish cycling post-Puerto and Italian cycling over the last decade has exacerbated this problem as there are very few ProConti teams with strong enough calendars and enough money to offer riders leadership that wouldn't be better served with domestique roles in WorldTour teams. As a result you have a very strong top level with very few makeweights, which further reduces the gap between the best and worst rider in any given race. Higher pressure on maintaining a spot on a top team may also increase the likelihood of riders taking reckless actions in the determination to keep their man at the front, to not lose time, and similar, and if a rider does take actions like that resulting in a crash, the péloton is typically going faster and has more riders in it than historically, so there's a statistically higher chance of injury. Take for example the pile-up caused by Filip Maciejuk in the Ronde van Vlaanderen, or the accident where Nicole Frain speared into the back of a static péloton that had already stopped because of another crash in the Tour de France Femmes last year - entirely avoidable incidents borne out of the pressure on riders to be at the front when there isn't room, or to be in the group because you lost time at a time when it wasn't expected.

This also then reduces the differences between teams and the amount of the course that is decisive, as more teams can protect their leaders for longer and more riders remain in the bunch. This in turn means that we see smaller time gaps, more riders in contention, and closer racing means a greater level of importance being placed on those areas that are decisive, increasing the pressure on riders in those environments when dropped. It also means larger pélotons arriving at crunch time in sprint stages - especially as GC riders are pretty much never dropped off in these anymore unless they crash - and the rules for acceptable sprint finishes and run-ins have been debated ad nauseam on the board as well. And as long as smaller time gaps become the norm, organisers will have to seek out ever steeper climbs and smaller roads to secure the guarantees of time gaps, seeing how the péloton has treated even the likes of Gran Sasso and Grand Colombier in the recent past. And if there is not the room for a finish at the top (and we don't want cycling to just become a hillclimb competition anyway), then that's going to entail including descents. But at least if the climbs are steep enough to break the péloton up sufficiently, riders can pick their own lines; with consistently small time gaps, riders don't have the faith that they can recover the time that they lose on descents anymore so may end up taking undue risks - something which is not related to the safety for racing of the descent itself, but related to the way riders are taking the stages. Also, the larger packs and groups of equivalent-level riders means more potential slipstreaming and drives the speed riders are descending up yet further.

Arguing about the safety of descents and steepness I think is also a moot point in respect of the Gino Mäder crash and death as well - the Albulapass descent has been taken year after year in the Tour de Suisse without incident and there is nothing particularly notable about it that raises its risk above that of any other major pass that we see in the sport regularly; this is just similar to Wouter Weylandt's crash coming down the Passo del Bocco - highly unfortunate. The organisers also had reason to believe that there would not be anything especially dangerous about it as it's coming off a HC mountain climb - certainly I think some points could be made about certain finishes we've seen over the years where you're seeing a rapid descent right to the line in stages which have not been particularly selective - take that Itzulia stage to Leitza for example - and the suitability of such descents to host finishes in stages of that nature should be challenged. But La Punt I don't think is one of those. With two significant crashes at the same corner in a short period of time perhaps questions could be asked of the signposting of the danger on the route, or questions could be asked if there was perhaps a pothole that should have been filled in or some oil on the road or something like that that might have increased the danger above the norm, but otherwise, I'm afraid it's just part of the risk that road cycling entails. Maybe some ski netting or catch fencing could be temporarily erected at particularly dangerous spots, but then the question would be, what constitutes a dangerous spot, and how dangerous is dangerous enough to merit it? It will never be enough until the whole course is enclosed because there will always be scope for a freak accident, similar to Allan Simonsen spearing off into the only unprotected concrete barrier in the entire length of the Circuit de la Sarthe (the motor racing one, not the cycling one) because the organisers thought it to be practically impossible for a car to go off in such a way as to hit that barrier full on - and they were right... until they weren't, and Simonsen was the unfortunate one to be the victim of the freak accident that enabled that crash.
 
I agree with the sentiment that none of us are even remotely qualified to answer this question. But I have to say that I'm massively annoyed by all the people thinking they can put this down to one factor.

This is not just a consequence of a new approach in stage design. Downhill finishes have existed for decades and decades. This is not just a consequence of races nowadays being decided by seconds, not minutes. Mäder was neither fighting for the stage win nor riding for gc. Of course it's important to learn from the past but people have to stop searching for the one reason to blame for such a tragic event. That reason doesn't exist.