Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[RobertCrawley]

The leaders were tested before and after.

Also, if you do not have access to their biological passports, you have no way of knowing if there are irregularities.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

The leaders were tested before and after.

We've heard that story before, for years in fact. The question is not if they are tested, but if the tests are up to the methods used.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Harsh on Lance, harsh on CEOs! He is a consummate salesman, no doubt about that. He’d be a great CEO and entrepreneur. Actually, he is a great CEO and entrepreneur. Like it or not, the guy is a leader. He understands how to bond people to him and influence them and bend them to his will. His comments about Vingegaard, Wout, and leadership were spot on, IMO.

I realize I sound like a Lance apologist, and I’m not. He was truly terrible to many people. But I have to give the man his due.

Edit: The constant pitching on The Move is really annoying, but I honestly chuckle when he slyly and often seamlessly pivots the conversation into a product pitch. It makes me laugh at how shameless and skilled he is.

I watched his bit on the ITT yesterday - I felt like I needed to take a shower afterwards given Lance's (and the rest of the gang's) past. But the dude definitely knows how to sell stuff.

 

[RobertCrawley]

We've heard that story before, for years in fact. The question is not if they are tested, but if the tests are up to the methods used.

Biological passports in 2008 are the game changer. If you don't understand them, you're just blowing smoke.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Biological passports in 2008 are the game changer. If you don't understand them, you're just blowing smoke.

See, I used to believe that, and for a chunk of years it reflected in the speeds, but we have seen changes that are drastic over the last years. We now need to explain how the 90ies are back without the methods of the 90ies basically to make this believable for people who have followed this sport through the dark ages.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Biological passports in 2008 are the game changer. If you don't understand them, you're just blowing smoke.

UCI might not even understand it considering Kreuziger blew them up when they went after him.

 

[Savant12]

So glad I didn't watch this stage given the ITT ridiculousness and I won't be watching any more of this year's Tour. Does Vingo ever tire?

 

[nightowl]

See, I used to believe that, and for a chunk of years it reflected in the speeds, but we have seen changes that are drastic over the last years. We now need to explain how the 90ies are back without the methods of the 90ies basically to make this believable for people who have followed this sport through the dark ages.

It’s also worth noting that it hasn’t been a gradual increase in performance level over the past 15 years - something that would support the idea that progress in tech, training, etc. was behind it all. Rather everything stayed at roughly the same level before it suddenly started getting ridiculously fast in 2020, and has kept getting faster quickly to the point that the whole peloton is flying at a level thought completely alien just a few years ago. Much more reminiscent of the EPO explosion in the 90s.

 

[RobertCrawley]

See, I used to believe that, and for a chunk of years it reflected in the speeds, but we have seen changes that are drastic over the last years. We now need to explain how the 90ies are back without the methods of the 90ies basically to make this believable for people who have followed this sport through the dark ages.

You don't understand.

Testing checks whether there were banned substances in a rider's body. It was and probably still is defeated by micro-dosing and other methods.

Biological passports are a history of measurements to determine whether there are changes in rider's body that shows doping. If there are irregularities with a biological passport of any rider, then we have a problem.

That's why it's hard to cheat these days. Is the peloton completely clean? I doubt it. TUEs are a problem, in my view. But almost certainly a high-profile rider would be exposed if he tried to beat the current system.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Testing checks whether there were banned substances in a rider's body. It was and probably still is defeated by micro-dosing and other methods.

Or by just being a new substance they don't yet test for or have no test for yet. The topic was regarding tests, so the difference in function of the passport to this is irrelevant to my initial point. That they are tested doesn't mean much, that they are blood testing Vinge now 4 times in 48h is either some kind of warning shot, or a show for the media imo.

Biological passports are a history of measurements to determine whether there are changes in rider's body that shows doping. If there are irregularities with a biological passport of any rider, then we have a problem.

That's why it's hard to cheat these days. Is the peloton completely clean? I doubt it. TUEs are a problem, in my view. But almost certainly a high-profile rider would be exposed if he tried to beat the current system.

Yes I understand how the passport works, and I don't claim to know which ways are realistic to get around it, but I know that the jump in speed has been drastic, is inexplicable and shows structural similarities to the EPO era.

 

[lenric]

or it's mechanical assistance

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

or it's mechanical assistance

I'm skeptical about this, what's the case for this not being to easy to detect?

Also: this would have to happen on a massive scale to explain the new speeds.

 

[Pistolas]

Loosing an uphill sprint to Bilbao (after two weeks matching Pog) and not going full gas on Lose...just insulting.

 

[TheMight]

Lol just listened to The Move and Lance advised Vingegaard to take it easy and not call attention to himself, let the other guys look good, ride in with your team, etc. He also went on a pro-trust rant, which was also amusing.

Georgie boy is still loyal to the game too, in that same conversation he attributed it to better training and technology.. A 10% edge from their super elite and proprietary diet and training.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Biological passports in 2008 are the game changer. If you don't understand them, you're just blowing smoke.

Did you believe Lance when he swore he wasn't doping?

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Georgie boy is still loyal to the game too, in that same conversation he attributed it to better training and technology.. A 10% edge from their super elite and proprietary diet and training.

I also find it interesting, that bar Hamilton e.g., the explanations have always been the same. Nutrition, better technology, magical gains. Always some small edge no one had thought about before, that in reality is just a new word for something old most of the time.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Did you believe Lance when he swore he wasn't doping?

Lance is a great example. He gamed the system, and he was enabled by certain people. I think we all know the story.

But when his biological passport was published, it was clear to experts that there was a serious problem.

One’s “beliefs” are irrelevant. Let’s deal in facts.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Lance is a great example. He gamed the system, and he was enabled by certain people. I think we all know the story.

But when his biological passport was published, it was clear to experts that there was a serious problem.

One’s “beliefs” are irrelevant. Let’s deal in facts.

That’s not how he got caught.

 

[RobertCrawley]

That’s not how he got caught.

I didn’t say that. I said his biological passport did not lie.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

I didn’t say that. I said his biological passport did not lie.

So what good is the biological passport then?

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Exactly

TL;DR:
Your guy is doped, but my guy is a generational talent born with incredible physical attributes few in this world possess. Delivered by Mother Nature.

That's sort of the point when one guy has next to no results until he's 25, and the other guy wins 75+% of the races as a junior and then goes straight into the peloton wins San Sebastian, wins ECC ITT, finishes 2nd in WC ITT.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I didn’t say that. I said his biological passport did not lie.

Then what was the case with Kreuziger then?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Lance has all the markings of a sociopath. If people mean that this characteristic makes you more likely to succeed in business, particularly in the US, that's an indictment of American capitalism not a positive trait to be admired.

 

[hrotha]

Lance is a great example. He gamed the system, and he was enabled by certain people. I think we all know the story.

But when his biological passport was published, it was clear to experts that there was a serious problem.

One’s “beliefs” are irrelevant. Let’s deal in facts.

It was also clear that his suspicious values weren't enough to trip the wire back then, and that was when the UCI was at least nominally willing to prosecute biological passport cases, before the Kreuziger debacle. And you think doping methods would not have gotten better since then?

It's an arms race. The biological passport came out 15 (fifteen) years ago. People adapt

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I'm skeptical about this, what's the case for this not being to easy to detect?

Also: this would have to happen on a massive scale to explain the new speeds.

There's a whole thread about motors if you want to delve into the minutiae and madness of it.
Like you I'm still skeptical at the feasibility & concealment at the current level of tech... Though it also depends how seriously you rate the UCI efforts to corroborate their presence.
It's not a fool proof argument but I also agree that motor cheating, were it to be exposed, would be an insurmontable scandal for the sport of a magnitude much larger (because it literally defeats the essence of the sport, like playing tennis with a cannon) than chemical doping. As such I would think teams would be cautious not playing with fire.

AFAIK, but I haven't followed closely, it's almost -save a handful of actual cases- all eye test "this is sus performances", GIFs of videos of bike seemingly not acting quite right and musings from sources of questionable backgrounds. Which is 95% what we do in the Clinic, to be fair.

That ITT was so shocking I second guessed myself about that though.