Junior gear restrictions

[Zorotheslacker]

I don't like them. I think it is better to spin. I think it is better to be low on the bike too - but that is not a US Cycling rule, while the former is. This is a rule about something that amounts to coaching. Is there any real evidence a 53X12 hurts anyone more than just riding too much might?

Why limit kid's gears?

 

[Boeing]

Why limit pitches and innings in Little League Baseball

 

[Zorotheslacker]

Why limit pitches and innings in Little League Baseball

If a Little League player is playing with/against adults are the limits there? I wouldn't know, but I don't think so.

A 14 year old racing adults - is limited - the adults are not.

The 2nd part - guessing - too much pitching/too many innings may have been shown to hurt a player.
I know of nothing about too big a gear on the bike hurting junior riders. Have you seen any such data?

I can see a junior riding a 100 mile race in the desert is unhealthy - but they are not limited on that.

 

[Franklopes]

Why limit pitches and innings in Little League Baseball..







Freestyle Motocross Pants

 

[King Boonen]

Kids are still growing and pushing big gears puts a lot of strain on the knees. It seems like a rule to try and reduce this so they don't have problems in later life.

However, I have no idea how they have come up with the allowable ratios and whether it is arbitrary or not.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

Kids are still growing and pushing big gears puts a lot of strain on the knees. It seems like a rule to try and reduce this so they don't have problems in later life.

Is there any evidence that cycling based strain on the knees from not spinning has shown to be a problem?

If it has maybe hills should be banned to, as a 52X14 gear on a hill strains knees too.

Kids don't push big gears, even when they can. A 12T in a sprint is not a big gear.

With out modern technology we could have kids upload their computers data at the end of the race and those spinning average less than 80 RPM qet DQ'd. Maybe we could use those new Vector type power meters and DQ them if there is too much torque as well.

I would just like to see some evidence a big gear caused any kid a problem.

 

[Master50]

It is a pretty old debate and I have no empirical evidence either way but I can remember Eddy Merckx arguing for the return of gear restrictions in Belgium in the early 80s.
In terms of my opinion I believe gear restrictions serve us well if we come up from juniors but it is very hard to train adults that like to turn big gears slowly to increase their cadence. Frankly by observation I think most people shift gears until they find the gear that works for 90% of their riding and never shift again. So often I see adults walking up small hills and see the bikes are in a hard gear for climbing. Easier to walk than to shift.
Then there are the cassettes and gear choices we get on our bikes. In my mind very few riders really need a gear larger than 53/14 except on long downhills so seeing so many gear clusters starting at 11? Yes we sport and racing riders probably can use a 13 in a sprint but very few are actually strong enough to put the 12 to effective use in a sprint. I have a 12 on my cassette and I know it will never wear out. I don't think I have used it more than 2 or 3 times since 2010 but I use the 29 every week.
I think a lot of adults should use junior gears at least for a year or so.

 

[King Boonen]

Is there any evidence that cycling based strain on the knees from not spinning has shown to be a problem?

If it has maybe hills should be banned to, as a 52X14 gear on a hill strains knees too.

Kids don't push big gears, even when they can. A 12T in a sprint is not a big gear.

With out modern technology we could have kids upload their computers data at the end of the race and those spinning average less than 80 RPM qet DQ'd. Maybe we could use those new Vector type power meters and DQ them if there is too much torque as well.

I would just like to see some evidence a big gear caused any kid a problem.

I'm almost certain there is no evidence, just an arbitrary limit that has been set.

If you know any kids that can spin out 52X12 in a sprint I'm pretty sure JV would be interested.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Kids are still growing and pushing big gears puts a lot of strain on the knees. It seems like a rule to try and reduce this so they don't have problems in later life.

There is some interesting reading in this area.
For children whose bodies haven't reached maturity, there seem to be a few things going on at once.

1. Gear limits are a way to protect the "growth plates" in a maturing body. Apparently, these are fragile until maturity.
2. A number of hormones are missing in children that means the adaptation to training in big gears might be different than in adults. My quick look for more details wasn't successful. So, maybe it's true, maybe not.

There should be real limits on the number of hours spent. You can look up some of the kids riding elite level in the U.S doing senior hours. Other sports federations that work in school systems have limits. It doesn't limit the effect of stage parents, but that's a different topic.

I'd put gear limits on all lower category riders. 99% of the time riders simply don't need those big gears. The other 1% of the time, it doesn't matter.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

I'm almost certain there is no evidence, just an arbitrary limit that has been set.

If you know any kids that can spin out 52X12 in a sprint I'm pretty sure JV would be interested.

Some riders spin more than others. I don't know of any juniors that can spin out a 52X12 - maybe some 18 year olds. I do know of a few downhill/downhill sprints where a 52X14 might have a disadvantage over those with a 52X12. Which is why I don't know of any adult road racer in a 52X14. So why handicap the kids?

 

[Zorotheslacker]

There should be real limits on the number of hours spent.
...
I'd put gear limits on all lower category riders. 99% of the time riders simply don't need those big gears. The other 1% of the time, it doesn't matter.

Hours can cause issues. The biggest is social and homework and I agree fatigue may cause injury, but that is not what is being restricted. What is being restricted is what is on the bike.

So you propose something like:
All Junior races gear limit
Cat 5 52X14 (or equivalent)
Cat 4 52X13
Cat 3 52X12
Cat 2 52X11
Next level - whatever they want...

My primary issue - brought up by a few juniors is not that they mind the gear restrictions when racing others Juniors with them, but when they race adults - sometimes it does matter (or adults wouldn't have them). 13yo+ juniors are in Cat 3 races, 15yo+ in Cat 2 races. A few are Cat 1 Juniors. It seems to be an arbitrary limit that disadvantages kids. To suggest a Cat 3+ needs to learn how to spin - too late.

 

[coapman]

Why limit kid's gears?

For the same reason all riders were told to use handlebars no narrower than the width of their shoulders or their breathing would be restricted. Nonsense, tell that to today's TT riders.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

For the same reason all riders were told to use handlebars no narrower than the width of their shoulders or their breathing would be restricted. Nonsense, tell that to today's TT riders.

Bar width as far as I know, nor wrong bike size, nor bad position has ever been against the rules. Gears are. We agree - Nonsense. It is coaching via the rules. Referees and rules should not be used to coach. If is not about rider safety (and I am asking how it could be about safety) then leave it to the coaches - the riders coaches.

Let juniors compete fairly with the same equipment as those they race against.

 

[woodie]

Bar width as far as I know, nor wrong bike size, nor bad position has ever been against the rules. Gears are. We agree - Nonsense. It is coaching via the rules. Referees and rules should not be used to coach. If is not about rider safety (and I am asking how it could be about safety) then leave it to the coaches - the riders coaches.

Let juniors compete fairly with the same equipment as those they race against.

When my best mate and I were racing as juniors I used restricted gears and he didn't, as a result he spent a year off the bike with damaged growth plates in his knees. It's the same as kids not doing massive weights at the gym until they are fully developed and I have another mate who was racing with A grade as an U15, on restricted gears. I also won a number of bunch sprints at open races with the 52X14 gear combo in U19s.

The theory is to protect the kids joints as they grow so they don't damage themselves long term. It is also to keep it as a more even playing field so that , in theory, the biggest, most developed kid doesn't just mash massive gears and ride away like that.

 

[King Boonen]

Ok, maybe I'm being stupid here but, I'm pretty sure Chris Hoy rides 52X14 in the sprints, maybe a bit bigger in the Keirin.

If you're winning Olympic track golds on 52X14 then surely it's going to be enough for a kid in a race?

I know the cadence is difference in track racing but even so.

 

[coapman]

When my best mate and I were racing as juniors I used restricted gears and he didn't, as a result he spent a year off the bike with damaged growth plates in his knees. It's the same as kids not doing massive weights at the gym until they are fully developed and I have another mate who was racing with A grade as an U15, on restricted gears. I also won a number of bunch sprints at open races with the 52X14 gear combo in U19s.

The theory is to protect the kids joints as they grow so they don't damage themselves long term. It is also to keep it as a more even playing field so that , in theory, the biggest, most developed kid doesn't just mash massive gears and ride away like that.

I don't know much about restricted gears but high gears are not suitable for road races, only for TT's. The most common areas of injury and pain in cycling are the knees and lower back and high gears do not help this situation. But it's not the gearing that is the root cause of the problem, it's the pedalling and the fact that all effective torque has to applied in a straight down direction. With the perfect TT technique all stress and strain can be removed from the lower back and peak torque application can be spread over 120 degrees instead of natural pedaling's 30 degree sector.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

I don't know much about restricted gears but high gears are not suitable for road races, only for TT's. The most common areas of injury and pain in cycling are the knees and lower back and high gears do not help this situation. But it's not the gearing that is the root cause of the problem, it's the pedalling and the fact that all effective torque has to applied in a straight down direction. With the perfect TT technique all stress and strain can be removed from the lower back and peak torque application can be spread over 120 degrees instead of natural pedaling's 30 degree sector.

Please put a number on it. What is the highest useful (at what RPM would you suggest a rider shifts up) cadence in a road race? TT?

 

[Master50]

I have to ask. Why do we even let junior race with elites? There is no problem with restricted gears when everyone has them. Sure it is often a bigger case of numbers. Not enough juniors for a race of their own. That said I certainly have seen juniors win elite races and those juniors have won on both restricted gears and open gears. Some asked about Chris Hoy. Track riders learn to spin at 160 rpm in junior gears and can kick the **** of most road sprinters, not for top speed but by acceleration.
Roadies can pass 70 kph and trackies probably top out around 68. Most domestic racing the sprints on the road are seldom as fast as either. I am no road star but the fastest sprint I ever was in peaked at 65 and we had a tail wind on pan flat road. I used my 14 because the 13 was too high for me. I was with top cat 1 riders and my 3rd place was a super achievement for me a Cat 4 rider. Yes the guy that won could use his 13 but I beat some guys with 12s using my 14. Leg speed matters and some juniors have very fast legs.

 

[Zorotheslacker]

If you're winning Olympic track golds on 52X14 then surely it's going to be enough for a kid in a race?

No... The kids are as fast as the armature adults. Mine hit over 170 RPM in his kids race in July. A short track sprint should not be compared to a long RR - and no adult would ride them the same.

14-18 races can get north of 50mph in road races.
Sprints 40+ (135rpm if at the roll-out limit) and a higher speed can be done by most kids with a bigger gear.

When they race categories ( adults ) they are at a huge disadvantage.

The posts about examples of injury could come with a 52X14 or 52X12 - or not cycling at all. A local little kids 10-12 race may putz around about 18 mph/60rpm in the highest gear. But by choice/practice these kids tend to spin about 100RPM. The gear limit affect things at the very high end. I don't see how making a kid spin 130 instead of 110 makes any difference in injury and I doubt there is any data on it.

I think many would agree once over 130 that is beyond most's maximum power band. Yet...that is the speed at which flat crits finish. An adult gets to finish a sprint at about 110 RPM and we want to put the kid at 142 so they don't hurt their knees?

 

[Zorotheslacker]

I have to ask. Why do we even let junior race with elites?

Because they are elite?
Same reason elites are allowed to race with pros.
They can't race in the masters. The U30 group is an open class.

Actually I know very few (none actually) 15+ juniors that can't stay with a Cat 4 race. Why even have 15-16/17-18. My son has a friend that wants to start racing - he's 17. the suggestion was to stay out of junior races.

 

[King Boonen]

I would assume the WT guys need the big gear because of the higher speed then, surely that's not necessary in anything below ProConti?

 

[Zorotheslacker]

... I am no road star but the fastest sprint I ever was in peaked at 65 and we had a tail wind on pan flat road. I used my 14 because the 13 was too high for me. I was with top cat 1 riders and my 3rd place was a super achievement for me a Cat 4 rider. Yes the guy that won could use his 13 but I beat some guys with 12s using my 14. Leg speed matters and some juniors have very fast legs.

We are scoping this to just sprints. RR have long descents and I would assume you went significantly over 65 - for a long time.
Your 65 works to about 135 RPM. The local crit around here has 4-5 races a day that top that.

If you say it doesn't matter if all gears are the same, then you lose a big part of cycling which is tuning the bike to your personal riding style. At the track, not all racers use the same gear. Every rider has a sweet spot. If USCycling is trying to reward the riders with the highest cadence sweet spot vs. the fastest - well they are doing exactly the right thing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

My primary issue - brought up by a few juniors is not that they mind the gear restrictions when racing others Juniors with them, but when they race adults - sometimes it does matter (or adults wouldn't have them). 13yo+ juniors are in Cat 3 races, 15yo+ in Cat 2 races. A few are Cat 1 Juniors. It seems to be an arbitrary limit that disadvantages kids. To suggest a Cat 3+ needs to learn how to spin - too late.

I'd put the adults on restricted gears. Adults will pretend the 1/100 times they actually use monster gears is really actually 80/100 or some other kind of nonsense. As it is most of these jokers break out the "race wheels" anyway. Put a different cogset on those thousand-dollar wheels and be done.

I saw other nonsense about helmets, then more recently about lawyer tabs on forks. Same kind of noise, only a different sound.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I have to ask. Why do we even let junior race with elites? There is no problem with restricted gears when everyone has them. Sure it is often a bigger case of numbers. Not enough juniors for a race of their own. That said I certainly have seen juniors win elite races and those juniors have won on both restricted gears and open gears..

To the bolded, typical UCI/USAC (for me) broken logic to the problem of sparse demand for their events, let kids risk damage to growth plates. What's some harm to kids when there are sparsely attended races in empty industrial parks to be ridden?

 

[Master50]

Because they are elite?
Same reason elites are allowed to race with pros.
They can't race in the masters. The U30 group is an open class.

Actually I know very few (none actually) 15+ juniors that can't stay with a Cat 4 race. Why even have 15-16/17-18. My son has a friend that wants to start racing - he's 17. the suggestion was to stay out of junior races.

Sorry, elites are all riders over 22. I am referring to the international categories not domestic.
Juniors are 17 and 18. U-17 is not governed by UCI rules, only domestic. I do not refer to U-17 as juniors and in Canada we used to call them cadets and their gear restrictions are lower than U19 (juniors)
I have gone from not liking gear restrictions to liking them. I remember measuring Roland Greens roll out when he was a junior. He is probably the strongest junior I ever saw and yes he was plenty capable of turning big gears but I doubt the gear restrictions hurt him any. I just cannot remember if his coach was for them or against them? Very few riders are that strong at that age.