Just a thought.

[Darryl Webster]

My other half came up with this idea and isnt a cyclist.
Why not take blood samples BEFORE the start of race.
Now I dont know how much blood is required for a sample but I dont think it`s very much but 21 days straight of a neadle is a bit objectionable but why not every other day , when signing on?( obviously not under public gaze!).
Then the the riders who make the race can be focused on following each stages result.
All sounds very simple to me...so peeps, whats the verdict?.

 

[theswordsman]

Blood tests during the 2010 Tour de France:

33 samples for hGH only
32 samples for CERA only
26 samples for HBT
124 for Biological Passport only
Total during the event: 215, plus one for each rider 3 days prior

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...endent-Observer/WADA_IO_Report_TDF2010_EN.pdf

 

[Willy_Voet]

I'm cool with whatever they do in tennis, football and swimming. These sports have their acts together.

 

[hrotha]

Money isn't infinite, you know.

 

[JPM London]

My other half came up with this idea and isnt a cyclist.
Why not take blood samples BEFORE the start of race.
Now I dont know how much blood is required for a sample but I dont think it`s very much but 21 days straight of a neadle is a bit objectionable but why not every other day , when signing on?( obviously not under public gaze!).
Then the the riders who make the race can be focused on following each stages result.
All sounds very simple to me...so peeps, whats the verdict?.

Well, they wouldn't be able to see if riders transfused during the race...

Anyway, I think if you knew you'd be tested prior to the race you'd have better opportunity to prepare and you'd be fully hydrated and so on. But I don't think that's the reason...

Could be nice to have some insight why they don't test before the race.

Maybe it's got to do with the time it takes, warming up and all that?

Also I'm not quite sure which benefits you see from testing before rather than after...

I'm cool with whatever they do in tennis, football and swimming. These sports have their acts together.

Yeah, must be good those systems - they never have any positives, so must be very effective at curbing the problem. But then again, none of those sports would really gain anything from doping anyway and they're all such nice guys as well...

 

[Darryl Webster]

Also I'm not quite sure which benefits you see from testing before rather than after...
.

Isn`t it the case that a riders blood values can change from being dubious to less dubious in the duration of a stage?.. dehydration, exhaustion etc thus the blood presented at the start is going to be in "tip top" condition.
Thats the thinking. How longs it take for a nurse to take a sample?..couple of minutes?.
Its not like most of the guys aint gonna be used to needles is it!

 

[JPM London]

Isn`t it the case that a riders blood values can change from being dubious to less dubious in the duration of a stage?.. dehydration, exhaustion etc thus the blood presented at the start is going to be in "tip top" condition.
Thats the thinking. How longs it take for a nurse to take a sample?..couple of minutes?.
Its not like most of the guys aint gonna be used to needles is it!

Hmm... I thought it was the other way round - the blood would be less suspicious before as the dehydrate during the ride.

 

[stainlessguy1]

Blood tests during the 2010 Tour de France:

33 samples for hGH only
32 samples for CERA only
26 samples for HBT
124 for Biological Passport only
Total during the event: 215, plus one for each rider 3 days prior

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/W...endent-Observer/WADA_IO_Report_TDF2010_EN.pdf

Thats a lot of testing , i wonder how many professional civilian jobs get tested that much for stuff . I know that truckers and pilots get tested somewhat , as the public safety kindof depends on it . Other than that who wants to be stuck with a needle that many times for something just so you can go to work ?
After watching the crashes in the tours and classics races , I think that the team car drivers and motorcycle riders should be tested for attempting to run over the competitors after they crash so they can get to their own fallen team members . ( some of these guys need a quadruple brain by pass , lol )
I think some of the spectators should be tested , especially photographers , a weeks ban from the tour isnt enough for taking down riders . I think more like forever stay at home if caught for causing crashes . Then there is the issue of animals on the course without leashes . The owners could be lashed for that or tied and dragged behind the peloton on cobbles .
WEll after hearing the commentator ban the spectators for a week , i say triple it gone , out . Never seen a commentator so passionate before .

 

[bhilden]

What I proposed to ASO is that they test every rider during the Tour time trials. Unlike most stage finishes when the whole peloton comes across the finish line in very quick succession, in time trials, the riders come across the finish line one-by-one, usually separated by one to three minutes.

I think it would be easy to have the riders roll right over to doping control when they finish, give a sample, and then head back to the team bus. You might need two or three collection teams, but because the riders would arrive at doping control more or less one at a time this shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.

 

[kurtinsc]

I'm cool with whatever they do in tennis, football and swimming. These sports have their acts together.

I'm laughing about swimming.

As a sport I follow closely, I can tell you that the difference between swimming and cycling when it comes to doping is that there is a lot less scrutiny and a lot less testing in swimming.

I saw amateur doping at the age group level in spades... with no testing of any kind. It's amazing how many top flight 13-14 and 15-18 year old swimmers have athsma inhalers.

I'd wager the other sports are similar.

In cycling, they bring attention to their dopers. In other sports they hide them.

And cycling is viewed as the "dope infested" sport. Kind of funny, huh?

 

[Hugh Januss]

I'm laughing about swimming.

I think we were suppose to laugh at all three.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Hmm... I thought it was the other way round - the blood would be less suspicious before as the dehydrate during the ride.

I get that, and believe me im no expert on any of this. Perhaps Joe Papp might shed light on when ( other than out of competion) testing might produce the most valuable of blood profiles in spoting the dopers.
My simple logic is you`d wanna be on the line in the best possible shape and be well aware of the hydration issues etc nescercery to produce a " clean" sample. Isnt it the case that a micro EPO dose taken in the morning is far harder to detect several hours later?
Wasnt it suspected that one top rider ( name fails me) was suspected to have failed control because he failed to hydrate sufficiently?
Any one know the amount drawn for a blood test?.
Regards cost..the idea isnt that every sample is tested but that those riders who perform on the stage/ Gc get the attention more focused on them.
Surely just the cost of taking and storage of samples isnt realy that much of an issue in events as big as G T`s?. If YOU were a pro...and REALY wanted to restore cyclings credibily would 12 or so blood samples during a Gt realy be to much?. Personaly I wouldnt hesitate.
Obviously all this is so much chewing the cud while the UCI, as it, is involved.
To me thats a red herring.

 

[Neworld]

Good ideas so far.

Clearly the corrupt UCI is a problem, and the cost of testing is formidable. But, since doping is such a problem maybe the 'price' of progress is just that costly. Riders should be willing to either directly or indirectly (Teams capital debt) pay for the extra testing. As outlined earlier the 201 TdF testing is embarrassing.

What about the riders or teams donating/paying to generate a capital 'doping slush fund'. That slush fund is:

a) paid to WADA to do the extra testing and

b) use some of the funds and divide them up amoungst the Protour teams (either the ones doing the grand tours or any tour race...I'm not sure). Make the Teams responsible for policing a randomly assigned number of others teams biological profiles. Imaging HTC examining the results from Garmin, team Leopard and say Radioshack. Conversely, the Shack watches 3 other randomly assigned teams.

Also, each team must police their own team and if they do not report one of their own riders abnormal labs first then they are first suspended, and after say 2-3 further 'misses' are excluded from the Protour.

If Team 'A' accuses that Team 'B' has a rider with an abnormal result they must use scientific methods to prove it and keep it confidential (work out details later) until WADA agrees.

I know, a dream and full of holes...just a thought.

NW

 

[Boy Howdy]

The Tour of California is doing this, and leading the fight.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2008-01-21-tour-of-calif-doping_N.htm

•All riders will have blood samples collected prior to the race, which will be tested for indications of blood manipulation. In addition, 30% of riders will have urine samples collected before the race. Urine samples will be analyzed for the presence of banned substances such as steroids, hormones (including EPO) and masking agents.

 

[JPM London]

I get that, and believe me im no expert on any of this. Perhaps Joe Papp might shed light on when ( other than out of competion) testing might produce the most valuable of blood profiles in spoting the dopers.
My simple logic is you`d wanna be on the line in the best possible shape and be well aware of the hydration issues etc nescercery to produce a " clean" sample. Isnt it the case that a micro EPO dose taken in the morning is far harder to detect several hours later?
Wasnt it suspected that one top rider ( name fails me) was suspected to have failed control because he failed to hydrate sufficiently?
Any one know the amount drawn for a blood test?.
Regards cost..the idea isnt that every sample is tested but that those riders who perform on the stage/ Gc get the attention more focused on them.
Surely just the cost of taking and storage of samples isnt realy that much of an issue in events as big as G T`s?. If YOU were a pro...and REALY wanted to restore cyclings credibily would 12 or so blood samples during a Gt realy be to much?. Personaly I wouldnt hesitate.
Obviously all this is so much chewing the cud while the UCI, as it, is involved.
To me thats a red herring.

I think we had a discussion before (or just after?) the Tour about the great value of taking a lot of samples, but not testing most of them to keep the costs down while at the same time enabling many samples that can be used later for targeted testing - so completely agree on that one. Sounds a simple answer doesn't it?

However, I think that discussion also laid bare that most samples are actually never even tested in the first anyway, so in a sort of backwards way that is what they're already doing - sampling, but not testing.

I can also see the problem of all test being after the race meaning that your value are safe before the race. But I actually don't think test are only done after races anyway, but that they have a certain window, ie the vampires can come to the hotel in the morning, but not so late that it interferes with the team's preparation for the stage/race...

 

[palmerq]

aren't they allowed to be tested from 6am-10pm or something, I think they do a few tests in the morning sometimes, wasn't the astana team in 2009 visited by the testers one morning during the tdf and they were having tea with them, or something, maybe that was a rest day I forget..

 

[Willy_Voet]

I think we were suppose to laugh at all three.

I was 1/2 serious. But yeah, you're right. I've gotten tired of explaining that cycling is no more dirty than XXX or YYY. Take your pick of any Olympic discipline, soccer, football, or rugby.

I'm no fan of McQuaid, but he should come out with statement to the effect of:

"**** it all, WADA is in charge of testing. They may test our athletes as much as they test any NBA or NFL player. I also welcome cooperation of local and national police, to the extent that they also investigate soccer/football teams."

I'd be cool with that. Seriously.