Kim Andersen - when life doesn't mean life

[fmk_RoI]

It's back to the eighties again, to a more innocent age when getting caught doping would see you getting your wrist slapped: http://www.podiumcafe.com/2010/12/1...on-the-causes-of-doping-the-kim-andersen-case

 

[Kerbdog]

Thats ridiculous. He must have had Verbruggens number in his back pocket all the time. I heard about Andersen before but didnt know the full story so thanks for sharing.
Dont know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[Ferminal]

The stupidest thing of all is that he's now allowed to work in a team, having a direct influence in the development of riders.

 

[L'arriviste]

Interesting stuff. I only had him down for two infractions and now we're told it's four. One of many things I've learned throughout my research is how 80s doping was very much a continuation of the gentlemen's hush hush club: a sometimes surprising list of big and biggish names like Bontempi, Kelly (x2), Fignon (x2), Delgado, Yates, Van De Velde, Emonds, Freuler etc all avoided any real sanctions.

 

[JPM London]

To be honest I don't have a big problem with this guy...

Most of the stuff was before EPO, probably a lot of Pot Belge, but you'd be hard pressed to find any rider from that period that didn't do that. And why should he wisen up? He was basically told by the actions taken against him that it was alright - in fact viewed with the standards back then he wasn't so much a bad guy as the victim. Poor guy, how come they go after him so much? Evil testers...

The last bit could be EPO related as it's 92, but I don't know if it is or isn't. And so what again? The only reason we're giving a guy like him any heat is because he was found out - at the same time we say on here time and time again that most of them "dulled the pain" pre EPO and most riders in the nineties were doing EPO.

So in the end there are at least a couple of thousand ex-riders we could string up in a tree with him - or maybe we could just pass on to something more interesting, like what happened after doping has become public knowledge and "non grata".

To me he's one of the guys who's trying to change cycling for the better, not despite, but probably because of how twisted that world was back then - and yes, that includes the experiences he had himself...

 

[ricara]

Yeah, I thought it was odd that the article didn't list what he was busted for a single time. There are guys that want to crucify Alexi because he did ephedrine before some important races. Personally I don't think you can compare ephedrine or caffeine or even amphetamines to EPO and blood doping. YMMV.

At the same time, I also don't think many of the guys on the new Luxembourg team are clean. So are they acting on their own? Or is Andersen helping out? Or am I just full of baloney?

 

[Kerbdog]

At the same time, I also don't think many of the guys on the new Luxembourg team are clean. So are they acting on their own? Or is Andersen helping out? Or am I just full of baloney?

This is exactly the question. He's gonna be so high profile next season with this team that his actual past will cast an unwelcome shadow. Anyway the Schlecks are happy to have him so we'll see what happens.

 

[webvan]

Well as someone put it in a comment in that link, he kept getting caught back in the day, so if he/his riders are not getting caught these days maybe it means he's stopped dabbling...

 

[L'arriviste]

Yeah, I thought it was odd that the article didn't list what he was busted for a single time.

For some months now, I've been examining the prevalence of doping cases in cycling since 1980. What I can say in answer to your thought above is that it's not so much the article as the time period under discussion. It was very unusual for the substance itself to be announced until relatively recently. Then one did get a whisper, it would just be something like "pot belge" (as JPM London reminds us above) or "steroids".

Consider one of the most famous cases of that period, that of Ben Johnson in the Seoul Olympics. Most of us will know that Johnson was DQ'd for doping, many will also recall that steroids were involved. However, significantly less could tell you that the product in question was stanozolol, which was quite popular at the time.

The product itself is, I think, the star of these times. When systematic testing reveals such a prevalence of abuse, it seems that the personalities tend to be eclipsed by the product, which develops its own mythical status. We are much more aware - and happily more suspicious - of drugs today and I think if Johnson or even Andersen were caught today, we'd actually expect to know what he was on.

 

[Christian]

To be honest I don't have a big problem with this guy...

To me he's one of the guys who's trying to change cycling for the better, not despite, but probably because of how twisted that world was back then - and yes, that includes the experiences he had himself...

I agree. I'm sure Andersen and Riis are not the only DS and team-manager today who have ever doped during their active career, and while they certainly made mistakes in the past doesn't mean they want to keep doing things the way they did twenty years ago.

Andersen and Riis basically developped the Bio Passport ... sure, therefore they might know its flaws better than anyone else, but overall it seems to have been a pretty handy device so far.

The story posted in the OP is very interesting and shows how things were handled in the past, but I don't think it allows to draw conclusions regarding how things are handled today. Andersen has been working as a DS for a long time, his life-time ban was well-known, I don't really see how any of this is big news or will cast a shadow over the new Luxembourg Team.

 

[fmk_RoI]

I thought it was odd that the article didn't list what he was busted for a single time.

The only one I know for sure is the '87 one that tripped the life ban. That was for testosterone. Apparently he believed his body naturally produced the excess on the day, even though tests showed it wasn't there a week earlier or a couple of weeks later. Strange thing, the human body, and what it can do. Ask Flandis.

I didn't mention it as I didn't have the info to hand at the time and that piece was written as a quick sort-of reponse to Lappartient's criticism of him.

The other negatives, I simply don't know. As someone else mentioned above, the information sometimes simply isn't available, not without going through newspaper archives and hoping it was mentioned, if the positive was even reported. Call me lazy or unpaid, but there I draw the line. Plus my Foreign isn't good enough.

FWIW, the 87 bust happened at the Tour du Limousin and was the one he got overturned on an admin technicality. Given Lappartient's comment, I'd say the French have bloody long memories where things like this are concerned.

On the 92 bust. Whoever said EPO doesn't seem to realise when EPO testing came in. 1997 (the H-test) and 2001 (the EPO test - first failed (sort of) by a CSC rider). One oddity of the 92 bust is that we probably wouldn't have known about it if Legeay hadn't fired him. In 92, Hein changed the rules again, not even releasing the names of riders who got busted. You had to check the FICP rankings and see who'd suffered a fifty point deduction.

The five cases I mentioned are simply five that I know of and are not necessarily the full picture. Maybe someone else who better knows the era will take the info that's out there and run with it, and give us a better picture of Andersen's full doping history. Given the profile he's now got, I think it's newsworthy.

There are guys that want to crucify Alexi because he did ephedrine before some important races. Personally I don't think you can compare ephedrine or caffeine or even amphetamines to EPO and blood doping. YMMV.

The only reason I'd slam Alexi's ephedrine bust is that the American fed insisted on going after Jeannie Longo for something similar. Double standards are the issue of that case, not the product.

 

[ulrikmm]

As I remember the Danish newspapers back in the eighties, the PED offences were for amphetamine twice.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Interesting stuff. I only had him down for two infractions and now we're told it's four. One of many things I've learned throughout my research is how 80s doping was very much a continuation of the gentlemen's hush hush club: a sometimes surprising list of big and biggish names like Bontempi, Kelly (x2), Fignon (x2), Delgado, Yates, Van De Velde, Emonds, Freuler etc all avoided any real sanctions.

Everyone avoided real sanction. There was no real sanction. That's what Kimmage tried to tell us twenty years ago.

 

[fmk_RoI]

To me he's one of the guys who's trying to change cycling for the better, not despite, but probably because of how twisted that world was back then - and yes, that includes the experiences he had himself...

What's your evidence for that? Serious Q. Any interviews etc where he's spoken out against doping and talked of how he wants to help create a clean sport? Any info of Team Delux's anti-doping prog?

 

[fmk_RoI]

The story posted in the OP is very interesting and shows how things were handled in the past, but I don't think it allows to draw conclusions regarding how things are handled today. Andersen has been working as a DS for a long time, his life-time ban was well-known, I don't really see how any of this is big news or will cast a shadow over the new Luxembourg Team.

As I said earlier, the piece was a sort-of response to a comment from the French fed's prez. Andersen's past, given his profile, is an issue and it highlight that the problems of this sport have deep roots. Do we just chop off the new branches or do we go for the roots?

As for it being well known ... clearly it's not that well known given how surprised some people are by how he came to have a life ban. And remember, he's unique among his peers in getting that.

 

[JPM London]

What's your evidence for that? Serious Q. Any interviews etc where he's spoken out against doping and talked of how he wants to help create a clean sport? Any info of Team Delux's anti-doping prog?

My first reaction was to write back to you saying "I didn't know I was required to prove an opinion", then I realised you didn't mean it like that...

Well, I do believe Riis has been sincere in trying to clean up (his part of) the sport also before the internal testing program at CSC. I don't think Damsgaard is in any corrupt, as some people on here like to maintain. Andersen has worked for Riis many years and I don't think he'd be on board if he didn't share those views.

As far as I know there aren't really any interviews with Andersen at all, let alone on the topic of doping, so it's not like there's a lot to go on directly. There might be some comment from Andersen and Nygaard about strong anti-doping stance of the new lux team, but I don't have any links or quotes.

My main point, though, is that all this "beat-up-Andersen-and-hang-him-from-a-tree-for-what-he-did-20-years-ago" comes from a Frenchman having a dig directly at him and based purely on the fact the Andersen was caught. Sorry to say this, but plenty of Frenchmen rode in the eighties and plenty of them did the exact same things - only they didn't get caught. He could have chosen to have a go at, say, Fignon - oh, sorry he's dead. He could have had a go at hinault - ah, sorry he's untouchable. You get my drift?

 

[JPM London]

... or indeed if he wanted to have a go at a Danish rider, why not choose Rolf Sorensen - member of Conconi's 23 "amateurs"? Oh, no he didn't do anything. As he says himself "My determination was my dope" or somehting like that. He's just as innocent as Stephen Roche - who never did anything either, although he's on the exact same list of EPO test animals - and with no less than 6 aliases.

Those people did EPO - Andersen as far as I know didn't, for all I know he might actually have retired not so much because of his "lifetime" ban but more because of the knowledge of the new name of the game and not wanting to go there.

Those people have never been caught or brought to justice for what they did - although they have been shown to be directly linked to doping. Sorensen is still working in the "business" for telly - as is someone like Laurent Jalabert - another "clean" rider - obviously I can't claim Jalabert was a doper, only note that he rode for teams that in the nineties did have systematic doping and that he did indeed do quite well in the period. Granted, these guys aren't leading teams and so involved in that close way, but they are still holding up their part of Omerta - Andersen is not.

Unless someone can show that Andersen has actually been involved in enabling since he retired as an active and been part of management I don't have a problem. He has served the punishment finally dealt by the governing body and if there's one person in the community about who you can fairly say "it's history, let's not discuss it anymore" it would be him. Unless, of course, somebody has something on him after his own doping stopped...

His time as a rider was a completely different era - you can't draw parallels to today's environment. Not just in the way of "that was the nineties", no this is "that was the eighties". Honestly, anything that happened then can only be used to analyse what the millieu was like back then, not to pass judgement on those involved. The nineties are a little closer and EPO had a completely different effect on the peloton, but the 80s? Come on! Like someone said in the Astarloa thread, "they'll be looking at Tom Simpson next".

Instead of putting focus on how someone tried to make a living in the eighties, it's better to keep focus on how some people made a killing and built power by keeping the hand over certain all-conquering riders - people who also incidentally involved in the sport and at an even higher level...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Nice post, JPM.

 

[Altitude]

Interesting stuff. I only had him down for two infractions and now we're told it's four. One of many things I've learned throughout my research is how 80s doping was very much a continuation of the gentlemen's hush hush club: a sometimes surprising list of big and biggish names like Bontempi, Kelly (x2), Fignon (x2), Delgado, Yates, Van De Velde, Emonds, Freuler etc all avoided any real sanctions.

Don't forget Lemond, Greg.

 

[webvan]

AFAIK the only who came "clean" on this topic was Fignon in his book last year.

1. First failed test, he claims he was framed by the lab that was trying to get back at him/his team for some reason.

2. He admitted to taking speed because his trainer's wife (Mme Alain Gallopin) was having a baby and he couldn't go out with him. He forgot it wouldn't be out of his system when he races in Holland the next week-end.

Fair enough, but that still raises the question of why he had speed hanging around at his place and though nothing of taking it...can only mean he was a regular user, just more careful normally.

 

[BroDeal]

Don't forget Lemond, Greg.

Gotta link for that??

 

[fmk_RoI]

Fair enough, but that still raises the question of why he had speed hanging around at his place and though nothing of taking it...can only mean he was a regular user, just more careful normally.

He didn't have it hanging round his place. He got it from Willy Voet.

As for Fignon being the only one to confess - hardly. Check the bookshelves a bit more carefully.

 

[veganrob]

Well as someone put it in a comment in that link, he kept getting caught back in the day, so if he/his riders are not getting caught these days maybe it means he's stopped dabbling...

Or perhaps he knows how to beat the tests better..hmm

 

[webvan]

Originally Posted by webvan View Post
Fair enough, but that still raises the question of why he had speed hanging around at his place and thought nothing of taking it...can only mean he was a regular user, just more careful normally.

He didn't have it hanging round his place. He got it from Willy Voet.

Source? Certainly not Fignon's book.

 

[ultimobici]

Interesting stuff. I only had him down for two infractions and now we're told it's four. One of many things I've learned throughout my research is how 80s doping was very much a continuation of the gentlemen's hush hush club: a sometimes surprising list of big and biggish names like Bontempi, Kelly (x2), Fignon (x2), Delgado, Yates, Van De Velde, Emonds, Freuler etc all avoided any real sanctions.

Yates? Got a link or a retraction?