Kloden linked to blood doping in 2006

[Mellow Velo]

You know the old saying that still holds true?
If you can't beat them.....join them.

 

[rhubroma]

You know the old saying that still holds true?
If you can't beat them.....join them.

I'm enjoying this back and forth about the doping issue. I realize for some it is tiresome, while for others it is stimulating. I've been under the impression, for years now, that what has been considered "unethical" by the masses, in the world of pro sport (and not just cycling) what is thought of as such is only relative to one getting caught. And this is what I mean by doping culture.

The immense gains in performance over the last decandes can not, in my opinion, be attributed exclusively to better training science, but are also proportional to the powerful new pharmaceuticals. Even just to train the body at certain levels, which leads to seemingly alien results, has, again in my way of thinking, been made possible by the new drugs. In other words the feats olympic athletes, just like those at the Tour, have been putting out with increasingly faster times since the 80's is partly owing to better training and partly connected to the drugs. This inextricable union between preparation and pharmaceuticals has, consequently, become the major cultural characteristic of sport in the modern age and is, moreover, perfectly in synch with the Western World's desire, at the financial markets just like in sport, to go beyond certain limits seemingly established by reason and nature. Our society bred on the myth of eternal growth, consumption and the possibilty of always being better (if not being immortal) through our technologies - like the Bionic Man - just can not accept such annoying limitations. It is thus no wonder given this world view, that in the glomourous environment of pro sport where wealth and fame coincide, would have taken recourse to performance enhancing drugs in massive quantities. Mine is an analysis which goes beyond the confines of sport naturally, but it is the only way I can make any sense of the "big picture."

 

[180mmCrank]

I once ran a class on ethics with a group of bright school kids. They were all struggling to understand why anyone would take PEDs - they just saw it as bad/dumb and wouldn't consider it - they thought anyone caught should be banned for life, locked up throw away the key etc School kids often don't pull any punches with this sort of thing.

So for fun I asked them - "What if you could take a pill that allowed you to memorise everything you needed to know to pass your exams? It had virtually no side effects and was undetectable. No one would ever know you took it. Would you consider taking it?" Some straight away said "No!" and a couple asked for clarity "It would be undetectable?" You could see the gears turning...One even joked "where could they get some?" - at least i think he was joking!

We then had a much richer debate about the merits or otherwise of performance enhancing substances, ethics and the difference between gamesmanship and cheating!

 

[euphrades]

USADA doesn't have that kind of money anyway (the USDA might though). .

LOL huge typo there,

Honestly the USDA would probably do a better job......

 

[mr. tibbs]

I once ran a class on ethics with a group of bright school kids. They were all struggling to understand why anyone would take PEDs - they just saw it as bad/dumb and wouldn't consider it - they thought anyone caught should be banned for life, locked up throw away the key etc School kids often don't pull any punches with this sort of thing.

So for fun I asked them - "What if you could take a pill that allowed you to memorise everything you needed to know to pass your exams? It had virtually no side effects and was undetectable. No one would ever know you took it. Would you consider taking it?" Some straight away said "No!" and a couple asked for clarity "It would be undetectable?" You could see the gears turning...One even joked "where could they get some?" - at least i think he was joking!

We then had a much richer debate about the merits or otherwise of performance enhancing substances, ethics and the difference between gamesmanship and cheating!

Good example, and it inspires me to voice my own personal thoughts on doping.

As a fan, I am very against doping (and really sad about this thread b/c Kloden is my favorite ), but, if it would mean I could ride at the top levels of the sport, I think I would dope.

It's easy to be an anti-doping, keyboard crusader, but in that situation... Remember Millar's interview where he talked about the moment he made his decision? Who among us would be able to resist?

That's just being honest. Sorry.

 

[rhubroma]

As far as gamemenship and cheating goes, well, I think for many athletes it has less to do with fixed ethics than it does with cultural relativism. Then factor in a million dollar contract and, all of a sudden, any philosophizing about ethics becomes of little (if any) consequence...

 

[BigBoat]

Damsgaard only came in after the 2006 Basso affair but yeah they were still beating post 2006.

Damsgaard was actually dropped by his hospital over not including other testers in the operation and taking home a free bike from the team.

I have NO reason to believe he is legitimate now or has in the past.

 

[BigBoat]

Here, just to give you an idea how realistic (call it jaded if you like, but it's logical) I am when it comes to this, consider this:

When Eddy Merckx set the hour record at his absolute pinnacle, he was topping out with about 380 watts (taking altitude into consideration). If we transported him from 1972 to 2009 he'd probably be a domestique carrying water bottles who might win a stage somewhere or get in some breaks. If we transported him to 2004, he'd probably only be able to make a Continental squad somewhere riding races like the Tour of Missouri.

Not even carrying water bottles if X number come in with blood in the fridge.... He would be DROPPED and DNF/ time cut as soon as the race hit significant climbing in spain... This goes for anyone, if more than 30 guys come into the race blood doping with their own blood. Not many know the effect of a high hematocrit over 3 whole weeks. Lemond knows this>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oskHWWgCpA&feature=related

If I remember right its about 30... And there are 02 carriers and such that couldnt be stopped even with total blood volume measuring.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You know the old saying that still holds true?
If you can't beat them.....join them

Well at least someone has a sense of humor about it!

In the 1984 Olympics a blind questionnaire was done asking athletes how they felt about doping, and an alarming amount said they would if could, didn't truly think it was cheating, etc. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Honestly the USDA would probably do a better job....

LOL! Maybe! Certainly any ICU could do better than the UCI!

BigBoat - That's a great link to the Lemond interview. Especially Part 3 where he talks about getting kids and schools into cycling. Greg rambles on at times, and can be a bit caustic, but he's pretty much right in everything he says about cycling, the UCI, doping, and cycling in education. He may be blunt, but he's very genuine.

 

[Power13]

Damsgaard was actually dropped by his hospital over not including other testers in the operation and taking home a free bike from the team.

I have NO reason to believe he is legitimate now or has in the past.

Link, please.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Yes, links to such claims would help. Damsgaard did set-up his own clinic however, and that right there sends up a red flag for me as a conflict of interest, as he's taking money directly from customers (teams) he's supposed to watch over. Not good.

One area I completely agree with Big Boat is power output (wattage) and hemoglobin testing. These really need to be included in any biological passport program in the future. Lemond was right when he challenged Catlin and Lance last year (Greg also suggested testosterone profiling).

Something interesting regarding the ethics of doping in the sport. I think we've pretty much come to the conclusion in not just cycling, but baseball and other sports, where the lying about doping is actually more damaging than the actual doping itself. Take a look at the hot water Roger Clemens is in compared to Andy Pettit for example.

Those of us who have paid close attention to this over the last several years all conclude that pretty much everyone in cycling doped at one time or another, to one degree or another, especially those that showed big performances and gains, and today is probably better, but still with problems. We already assume this is true. But when a rider gets caught and just constantly denies it, it's just laughable and makes them look like a scam artist who takes us all for fools. Take a look at the Tyler Hamilton case. If he finally came clean, I don't think anyone would be shocked or show any dismay. The vast majority of people would probably respect him a little for finally owing up to the obvious and telling the truth.

I don't think we've reached the point where an accused athlete who didn't do anything would be better off just confessing, but I hope we don't get there. Koldo Gil comes close, but he's mostly just been railroaded by the UCI who won't cross-reference his DNA like he offers, leaving him blackballed from the sport.

 

[BigBoat]

Yes, links to such claims would help.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2009/1/25/735893/damsgaard-under-fire

VERY GOOD QUOTE>>>> "But Lance Armstrong has his own anti-doping program along with the American doctor Don Catlin and would not (readily, willingly, without further ado)allow himself to be examined by a doctor from Bispebjerg Hospital. That was totally unacceptable to Bo Belhage. "If we are to participate, and he is to ride for Astana, which we have a contract with, then he must also be checked on our conditions. It can’t be that he is checked on his own conditions. That would be nonsense "said Bo Belhage last autumn to Ritzaus Bureau.

"We must not only see his values - we must also take samples. It should be us who are knocking on his door two o'clock at night and say, 'Lance, now you **** in the pot.' That's it. "

AT THAT POINT, the hospital separated itself from the guy!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks for the link.

For those not in the know, Lance is not being tested by Don Catlin. The "partnership" Lance once so proudly touted, never even came off. Link here.