lance article good read !!

[ChrisE]

So you changed all my post and did not answer any questions, address any of the issues, produce any evidence that it was common knowledge - do not address any of the Walsh, Coyle FACTS i gave. Exactly what are you supplying to this forum? Bar the regurgitation of twitter feeds and press relaeases?

Marty Jemison - team mate of Lance for years - did not know about Ferrari.....so common knowledge now yes - but provide any evidence whatsoever that it was common knowledge prior to Walsh's article in 2001. Otherwise your whole 'argument' is based on Greg being jealous lol

I didn't change your post...I just hit "quote" and that is what came up.

I have special software on my computer that is linked to Babblefish. For you I set it on " to English". It washes all the stuff I quote on forums and puts it in a more intelligent form.

 

[Digger]

I didn't change your post...I just hit "quote" and that is what came up.

I have special software on my computer that is linked to Babblefish. For you I set it on " to English". It washes all the stuff I quote on forums and puts it in a more intelligent form.

Ad hominem attack
Ad hominem attack (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting or belittling one's opponent in order to invalidate his or her argument, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

Not once in the three posts have you addressed the issue raised.

 

[Barrus]

Allright, if you guys can't play nice and be polite to one another, this thread will be closed.

 

[ChrisE]

Allright, if you guys can't play nice and be polite to one another, this thread will be closed.

Is this the official CN Mod beratement post now? I see you have used it in two places.

Digger just doesn't understand that I don't buy his "GL came to his senses when he heard the rumor about Ferrari" card in late July 2001.

This is due to the fact LA's VO2 max was known for quite some time before 99 and he used it on LA during the phone call. Highest forum authority RR confirmed that.

Also, GL used the "my results were better than yours" card on LA as well during that phone call. It was also known that LA used Ferrari before 99. GL is an authority on Ferrari and he even knows details of his payment breakdowns for services rendered.

So, why didn't GL begin to "come to his senses" prior to late July of 2001?

Barrus I only want others to help me out here. Hopefully Digger will take a step back and stop hounding me around the forum.

 

[Digger]

Is this the official CN Mod beratement post now? I see you have used it in two places.

Digger just doesn't understand that I don't buy his "GL came to his senses when he heard the rumor about Ferrari" card in late July 2001.

This is due to the fact LA's VO2 max was known for quite some time before 99 and he used it on LA during the phone call. Highest forum authority RR confirmed that.

Also, GL used the "my results were better than yours" card on LA as well furing that phone call. It was also known that LA used Ferrari before 99. GL is an authority on Ferrari and he even knows details of his payment breakdowns for services rendered.

So, why didn't GL begin to "come to his senses" prior to late July of 2001?

Barrus I only want others to help me out here. Hopefully Digger will take a step back and stop hounding me around the forum.

By who????????

 

[ChrisE]

By who????????

OK, for sake of argument let's change that to "2001" so maybe it is more palatable to you.

Do you really believe that GL first heard the rumor of LA/Ferrari link in July of 2001? Do you really believe, when GL is quoted about his early results in the TdF and his VO2 max vs LA's, just suddenly all got pieced together in late July of 2001 during a phone call out of the blue?

Do you really believe that? Let me say that again.....do you really believe that? Really? I'm serious....really?

 

[Digger]

OK, for sake of argument let's change that to "2001" so maybe it is more palatable to you.

Do you really believe that GL first heard the rumor of LA/Ferrari link in July of 2001? Do you really believe, when GL is quoted about his early results in the TdF and his VO2 max vs LA's, just suddenly all got pieced together in late July of 2001 during a phone call out of the blue?

Do you really believe that? Let me say that again.....do you really believe that? Really? I'm serious....really?

If Marty Jemison (his team mate) did not know about it, why would Greg?
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever it was common knowledge? So common that Walsh had to rely on a tip off from a police man who came from the same twon as Ferrari.

I am going to ask you for the fourth time, back up your claim it was common knowledge or else accept that Greg had no reason to hear it.

 

[washedup]

Marty Jemison - team mate of Lance for years - did not know about Ferrari.....so common knowledge now yes - but provide any evidence whatsoever that it was common knowledge prior to Walsh's article in 2001. Otherwise your whole 'argument' is based on Greg being jealous lol

I remembered hearing years back how Marty Jemison was about as dirty as they come.... this is hard from "evidence", but something to keep in mind when using his statements to prop up a defense:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/08/road/old-doping-accusations-lead-to-altercation_82154

 

[buckwheat]

OK, for sake of argument let's change that to "2001" so maybe it is more palatable to you.

Do you really believe that GL first heard the rumor of LA/Ferrari link in July of 2001? Do you really believe, when GL is quoted about his early results in the TdF and his VO2 max vs LA's, just suddenly all got pieced together in late July of 2001 during a phone call out of the blue?

Do you really believe that? Let me say that again.....do you really believe that? Really? I'm serious....really?

So, your main issue on the doping front is that LeMond is jealous?

Nice tangential analysis....

 

[buckwheat]

I remembered hearing years back how Marty Jemison was about as dirty as they come.... this is hard from "evidence", but something to keep in mind when using his statements to prop up a defense:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/08/road/old-doping-accusations-lead-to-altercation_82154

Who said he was clean?

What was noted was that even Marty Jemison didn't know Pharmstrong was seeing Ferrari.

This was also noted in Coyle's book, and by JV and others.

 

[red_flanders]

So, your main issue on the doping front is that LeMond is jealous?

Nice tangential analysis....

<rhetorical>Who cares what his issue is.</rhetorical>

Not one single fact has been offered to support any of the endless posts.

 

[buckwheat]

<rhetorical>Who cares what his issue is.</rhetorical>

Not one single fact has been offered to support any of the endless posts.

Right, but when there is a dearth of substance to accusations, you then focus on the accuser and his motivations.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What's confusing about the car conversation is GL says it is impossible for LA to ride faster than him due to his physiology, but yet this was just after his public statement in 2001 about LA being the greatest comeback or greatest fraud in sports.

If that is his take, why wasn't it his take in 99 or 2000? Why the acceptance of LA's feats, despite all of this physical data, prior to him winning his, ahem, 3rd tour?

When was LA's VO2 max public knowledge?

The first LeMond knew of LA's V02 max was when he heard a presentation given by Ed Coyle in April 2001.

Lemond had first heard that LA was working with Ferrari in 2000 in a conversation with Julien DeVries.
The story only became public knowledge in 2001 by Walsh and for something that was - as you suggest public knowledge - it received a lot of comment.

Also - why was Dr. Ferrari the only member of his staff not to get an acknowledgment in LA's 2000 book "It's not about the bike"?

 

[Digger]

If the jealousy card really was valid, why did Greg not go directly to the media in 2001,and start talking Ferrari, physiology, Thus causing as much damage as possible? He did not - but he did say it in private to Lance.
Greg was asked about Ferrari by a journalist - he said he was 'disappointed to hear it' and that was it and there was plenty more he could have said in 2001. These really are the words of a man destroyed by jealousy alright.

 

[Digger]

<rhetorical>Who cares what his issue is.</rhetorical>

Not one single fact has been offered to support any of the endless posts.

If you want to willfully ignore them, that doesn't mean they do not exist.

 

[red_flanders]

If you want to willfully ignore them, that doesn't mean they do not exist.

Oh I think you've presented quite a few facts. Your foil with the bad teeth is who I was referring to.

 

[D-Queued]

I am sure there are guys on here who can quote the whole book verbatim let alone this excerpt.

You have to admit that being able to quote the book verbatim can never truly measure up to having actually lived the lie.

... Why did you think Julien De Vriese spoke about these secret training camps where Ferrari attended? This was why Lance came out with the bulls*** story about Ferrarri preparing him for the hour record in 2001, because Walsh was breaking hte story about them working together. ...


So if you have evidence ...

Interesting.

This part came up a couple of times in the thread.

I can confirm that the hour record thing was BS. That is directly from someone that was actively involved in LA's training.

But, I had never made the linkages. Thanks for filling in some gaps.

Dave.

 

[Digger]

Oh I think you've presented quite a few facts. Your foil with the bad teeth is who I was referring to.

Sorry bud.......