Lead Outs

[Swede1]

In every sprint finish Cavendish's HTC lead out train always dominates. What riders would make a good lead out for Farrar, Greipel, and Petacchi so that they could compete with the Martin, Eisel, Goss (Rasmussen), Renshaw lead out? It seems like Farrar, Greipel and Petacchi have the speed to win, its just that they always start behind Cavendish, and its hard to come around him.

 

[Mambo95]

Farrar had (or had) Zabriskie, Millar, Hushovd and Dean at his disposal.

 

[Swede1]

Farrar had (or had) Zabriskie, Millar, Hushovd and Dean at his disposal.

It seems like Millar should be able to match Martin, and then Hushovd should be able to out power Goss, which would leave Dean and Farrar in perfect position, but that never seems to work out.

 

[riobonito92]

It seems like Millar should be able to match Martin, and then Hushovd should be able to out power Goss, which would leave Dean and Farrar in perfect position, but that never seems to work out.

The problem seems to be that Dean is not as fast as Renshaw.

Maybe the dream non-HTC train would be Hushovd, Boasson Hagan, Hondo leading out Greipel

 

[taiwan]

Farrar had (or had) Zabriskie, Millar, Hushovd and Dean at his disposal.

I'd say Millar is the Rolls-Royce of (not final) lead out men when he does it. Has the brains and the brawn. No evidence, I just reckon so.

As I said elsewhere, Sky have all the chronomen, just no finisher to compete with Cav.

For a dream team it would prolly be Martin, Cancellara, Millar, Boonen, in that order. Not to disrespect Tommeke but he's got the skills and I believe he's a 'sustained power' type rather than an 'instant acceleration' type which is ideal. It's fantasy.

 

[b.broadhurst]

Best leadout would have to be Wiggins, Martin, Cancellara then Hushovd/Thomas, Renshaw and the Mighty Cav!!

 

[Swede1]

The problem seems to be that Dean is not as fast as Renshaw.

Maybe the dream non-HTC train would be Hushovd, Boasson Hagan, Hondo leading out Greipel

Yeah Renshaw and Cav are usually able to get onto Farrar's wheel, so even if they got the lead out right, when Dean started the final 500 meters, renshaw would come out from behind and go past.

 

[UpTheRoad]

On a mountain stage I'd take Contador as a lead out for Tiralongo.

 

[Tuarts]

In every sprint finish Cavendish's HTC lead out train always dominates. What riders would make a good lead out for Farrar, Greipel, and Petacchi so that they could compete with the Martin, Eisel, Goss (Rasmussen), Renshaw lead out? It seems like Farrar, Greipel and Petacchi have the speed to win, its just that they always start behind Cavendish, and its hard to come around him.

Pettachi only has Hondo and Bole this tour so its hard for him. All he needs those is one more rider, a TT like Malori to go in front then you'd have a train like Malori, Bole, Hondo Pettachi.

Garmin probably have a great but probably need DZ there. Nutz, Miller, Hushovd, Dean, Farrar would work very well.

Griepel has Sieberg and Lang but really needs Hansen there to lead him out and more than likely somebody else as well (Dockx?).

This tour hasn't really been a traditional sprint fest anyway (just look at the parcours last year!) so combine that with other team objective, doesn't really make sense for other teams to bring a large train.

 

[abbaskip]

I think the guy everyone is missing, who would be unbelievable in the Eisel role, would be Stuart O'Grady. For a long time was rated the best track rider in the world (I was there when he won gold with Brown in the Madison at Athens in 04, and Brown was good, but O'Grady looked like he was an A-Grader racing with B-Grade at club level)...

O'Grady is also strong, has great bike handling skills, and is fast enough to get the pace right up.

Goss I think is also ridiculously strong to be the man before Renshaw, but in form, obviously Goss wouldn't be in that role. He'd be the pea for just about any other team in the world.

O'Grady-Thomas-Boassen Hagen-SPRINTER would be great.

Though to be honest, as good and strong as Thomas and Boassen Hagen are, I'm not sure they're good enough at positioning themselves, or their sprinter. That is where Renshaw (and possibly Hondo) really are in a League of their own.

 

[hfer07]

HTC has the entire team as Cavendish disposal, whereas the rest of the teams with good sprinters have more all rounded riders without the depth to do that kind of job. -and adding to the fact that Mark is the indisputable fastest rider in the last 100 meters-there is a slim opportunity-perhaps like the one Greipel took advantage from- to beat the missile...

 

[Tuarts]

O'Grady-Thomas-Boassen Hagen-SPRINTER would be great.

Though to be honest, as good and strong as Thomas and Boassen Hagen are, I'm not sure they're good enough at positioning themselves, or their sprinter. That is where Renshaw (and possibly Hondo) really are in a League of their own.

You do know there are other racers than TDF?

Thomas has been one of the best lead out men all year. Some of his setting up of Swift, Henderson, Sutton this year has been excellent. Add to that his classics form and he's had a great year.

 

[abbaskip]

You do know there are other racers than TDF?

Thomas has been one of the best lead out men all year. Some of his setting up of Swift, Henderson, Sutton this year has been excellent. Add to that his classics form and he's had a great year.

Yes, I do.

Yeah he's good, and strong, but doesn't nearly as consistently place his sprinter as well as Renshaw (or Hondo).

As I said, I marked hard, because I think those two are a step above the rest of the world. Goss himself said that whilst he is quicker than Renshaw, Renshaw is a better leadout. Not just because Renshaw slowly raises his acceleration (any one can change this a little bit if need be), but because of the way Renshaw places Cavendish. Goss says he is too used to riding for himself, and loses his sprinter at times. You very very rarely see Renshaw lose Cavendish, or Hondo lose Petacchi, unless either the sprinter or lead out choose to go themselves.

 

[Tuarts]

Yes, I do.

Yeah he's good, and strong, but doesn't nearly as consistently place his sprinter as well as Renshaw (or Hondo).

As I said, I marked hard, because I think those two are a step above the rest of the world. Goss himself said that whilst he is quicker than Renshaw, Renshaw is a better leadout. Not just because Renshaw slowly raises his acceleration (any one can change this a little bit if need be), but because of the way Renshaw places Cavendish. Goss says he is too used to riding for himself, and loses his sprinter at times. You very very rarely see Renshaw lose Cavendish, or Hondo lose Petacchi, unless either the sprinter or lead out choose to go themselves.

So Thomas should be overlooked for doing these things all year because he hasn't been able to do it successfully for most of the TDF? Harsh imo

 

[abbaskip]

So Thomas should be overlooked for doing these things all year because he hasn't been able to do it successfully for most of the TDF? Harsh imo

No. I said I would have Thomas in the group that I nominated? Then I qualified this by saying I don't think he and Boassen Hagen are good enough (relatively speaking) at positioning themselves. ie. They're not as good as Renshaw and Hondo.

Where did I ever say anything about overlooking him all year.

Don't misquote me. If you want an argument, bring it on, but don't do it based on something I haven't said. If you can't beat me with facts, you can't beat me.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

In every sprint finish Cavendish's HTC lead out train always dominates. What riders would make a good lead out for Farrar, Greipel, and Petacchi so that they could compete with the Martin, Eisel, Goss (Rasmussen), Renshaw lead out? It seems like Farrar, Greipel and Petacchi have the speed to win, its just that they always start behind Cavendish, and its hard to come around him.

After stage 15 won by Cav (Farrar second with Dean leadout)... so the train was Renshaw, Cav, Dean, Farrar... most people noticed that Farrar had the speed and was gaining on Cav, but Farrar started too far back. Cav rides extremely low and does not produce a good draft for followers. That's where Dean comes in. To give Farrar a chance to beat Cav, the OP noted that Dean should have pulled alongside Renshaw drawing Farrar behind. That way Farrar and Cav would have started their push to the line at about the same position, rather than Farrar having to gain 2 bike lengths. However, Dean is not Renshaw, and it may be asking a lot of Dean to pull alongside Renshaw.

 

[Tuarts]

No. I said I would have Thomas in the group that I nominated? Then I qualified this by saying I don't think he and Boassen Hagen are good enough (relatively speaking) at positioning themselves. ie. They're not as good as Renshaw and Hondo.

Where did I ever say anything about overlooking him all year.

Don't misquote me. If you want an argument, bring it on, but don't do it based on something I haven't said. If you can't beat me with facts, you can't beat me.

No need to get narky, I want a discussion first, not an argument.

I just don't agree, based on what I've seen this year with your original statement that Thomas is not good enough at positioning himself.

 

[kjetilraknerud]

Dean is good, but he isn't fast enough anymore. He used to do great lead outs for Hushovd at Credit Agricole, but now Renshaw owns him 99 out of 100 sprints.

In Paris, Garmin should perhaps use Hushovd as the final lead out for Farrar, he's a big guy, a great bike handler and can produce some serious power at the front. Millar can drag them to the front, Dean can place Hushovd inside the final k - and he can drag Farrar around that last corner.

 

[Swabian Lass]

HTC is built around Cavendish and delivering Cavendish to the perfect place to complete the sprint in GTs. They might make noises about the GC, but in reality their team know that they're there to win the sprint stages and they might get permission to do their own thing if it doesn't interfere with that. I can't think of any other team currently, who has that as a sole goal. Thats's why I think that Thomas should think carefully about his future if Cavendish goes to Sky.

 

[abbaskip]

No need to get narky, I want a discussion first, not an argument.

I just don't agree, based on what I've seen this year with your original statement that Thomas is not good enough at positioning himself.

Coulda fooled me (re: not wanting an argument! )

The difference is Renshaw gets it right 99% of the time when he is in a sprint (the times the HTC train doesnt get it right, is usually when Renshaw is dropped). Thomas gets it right sometimes. He positions himself really well, but sometimes loses his man.

 

[greenedge]

People with track backgrounds have great experience ( O' Grady, Lancaster and others ) at positioning. Most of the time the Anglo riders convert from Track to road. I think Goss has been on good form this year and would be = to Hushovd for the moment. I like Hondo's tactics at this TDF riding at the front for Petacchi. However they do need Malori to help as well. Bole is good and could probably be given a contract for himself as a main sprinter.

Best young sprinters: Degenkolb, Kittel, Guardini, Cossack all seem to have good positioning. They just need good leadout men devoted to them.

Garmin and Sky have leadouts to rival HTC's

 

[abbaskip]

People with track backgrounds have great experience ( O' Grady, Lancaster and others ) at positioning. Most of the time the Anglo riders convert from Track to road. I think Goss has been on good form this year and would be = to Hushovd for the moment. I like Hondo's tactics at this TDF riding at the front for Petacchi. However they do need Malori to help as well. Bole is good and could probably be given a contract for himself as a main sprinter.

Best young sprinters: Degenkolb, Kittel, Guardini, Cossack all seem to have good positioning. They just need good leadout men devoted to them.

Garmin and Sky have leadouts to rival HTC's

I think they have leadouts to rival HTC's in terms of speed and strength. But not organisation and positioning.

Regarding Goss/Thor. I think Goss is definitely faster. Thor definitely stronger.

 

[Midnightfright]

I think they have leadouts to rival HTC's in terms of speed and strength. But not organisation and positioning.

Regarding Goss/Thor. I think Goss is definitely faster. Thor definitely stronger.

With regards to EBH/Thomas leadout it seems to be for ne as much that EBH has trouble keeping GT's wheel. This could be either or both of there issues but I think may be more in Eddys court because G doesn't seem to have had as much issue with it leading other sprinters out earlier in the season.

 

[Four Winds]

Which leads on to the question- IF Cav goes to Sky and IF Stapleton can't get a replacement sponsor for HTC, how many of the HTC train will follow him to Sky? Could see guys like Eisel and Renshaw go? A combined HTC/Sky train could be good.

 

[kjetilraknerud]

With regards to EBH/Thomas leadout it seems to be for ne as much that EBH has trouble keeping GT's wheel. This could be either or both of there issues but I think may be more in Eddys court because G doesn't seem to have had as much issue with it leading other sprinters out earlier in the season.

That's a good point. It seems to me that EBH lacks a bit of the non-nonsense attitude needed in fast sprints, and thus loses wheels too easy.