LeMond: Six Steps to Eradicate Moto-fraud

[Maxiton]

Benotti69 linked this article in the Moto-fraud: First Rider Caught thread, but after reading the article, I thought what LeMond had to say is significant and warrants a thread of its own. Accordingly, I've adapted it (and abridged it severely) for presentation here.

Greg LeMond has pinpointed six steps to eradicate moto-fraud:

1. First of all, take it seriously:

“All people have to do is open their eyes and ears and take this seriously. Nobody wants to believe in this stuff. The worst part is that people who are in the know know about it, but don’t do anything about it. That is the worst part.

“The UCI has known about it for many, many years and they still haven’t really done anything to change.

“Okay, now one rider has been caught; for me, that’s a token gesture. There were things that they could have done last year that they never did.

“Testing needs to be removed to an independent group like WADA. And the Tour de France and the teams need to work together too.”

2. Ban bike changes:

“In racing right now, riders and teams should not be allowed to freely change bikes during a race.”

3. Tag bikes and sequester them after the finish line:

“They need to tag the bikes. And any bike that is changed during the race needs to go straight to inspection. And every rider when they cross the finish line needs to go in and have their bike sequestered. They cannot leave the finish line with their bikes.”

4. Use specialist scanners and equipment:

“To me, UCI are not testing properly. If they are, they need to put their money where their mouth is and buy the equipment that can really test the bikes.

5. Focus on all possible areas of mechanical fraud:

“Now the pressure needs to be on [searching for electromagnetic] wheels. The best way to look for this is with the x-ray scanner. There is technology out there that can detect these things. If you really want to fight these people who are cheating, you have to fight them with technology.”

6. Have clear and stringent penalties:

“Right now the UCI talks about a six month minimum penalty, but that isn’t a definitive enough sanction. It should be black and white."

“Teams want part of the TV revenue, they want to be part of the revenue stream. They have got to ensure that no more scandals are going to happen. They shouldn’t be just handed a financial penalty, they should be paying actual damages to the sport. And there should be automatic lifetime bans. Teams out, boom.”

Personally, I think LeMond is naive about the role and functioning of the UCI, and you'd think he shouldn't be after what he's experienced over the last fifteen years or so. But maybe he is just hopeful. Who knows, maybe he has reason for hope, reasons to trust in the good intentions of the UCI.

Still, and as he points out, these are all common sense things the UCI should already be doing. The fact they aren't begs the question: why not? And, as well, when are they going to start?

I read recently that those electromagnetic wheels he mentions cost two-hundred thousand euros each. The manufacturer has a six month waiting list . . . .

Discuss.

 

[blackcat]

the lady doth protest too hard methinks

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

the lady doth protest too hard methinks

But, if so, what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

 

[red_flanders]

Re: LeMond: Six Steps to Eradicate Moto-doping

Personally, I think LeMond is naive about the role and functioning of the UCI, and you'd think he shouldn't be after what he's experienced over the last fifteen years or so. But maybe he is just hopeful. Who knows, maybe he has reason for hope, reasons to trust in the good intentions of the UCI.

Interesting, I simply read it as what he says. "“Testing needs to be removed to an independent group like WADA. And the Tour de France and the teams need to work together too.”

I don't think he's the slightest bit naive, I don't think he expects the UCI to do what he's suggesting. He's just outlining what should be done.

For example, “The UCI has known about it for many, many years and they still haven’t really done anything to change."

Pretty much.

Still, and as he points out, these are all common sense things the UCI should already be doing. The fact they aren't begs the question: why not? And, as well, when are they going to start?

Because they are corrupt and compromised. When? Sometime around the 10th of...Never...I'd imagine.

what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

Trying to be helpful? Wanting to see the sport cleaned up? Surely it's that simple?

 

[Catwhoorg]

You need to get the scanning tech such that any bike ridden by say a top 10 finisher on EVERY stage (at the top level) gets examined.
Plus AT LEAST another dozen or so randoms per stage.

Then cruise up and down the field with a FLIR camera on a moto during the race.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: LeMond: Six Steps to Eradicate Moto-doping

Personally, I think LeMond is naive about the role and functioning of the UCI, and you'd think he shouldn't be after what he's experienced over the last fifteen years or so. But maybe he is just hopeful. Who knows, maybe he has reason for hope, reasons to trust in the good intentions of the UCI.

Interesting, I simply read it as what he says. "“Testing needs to be removed to an independent group like WADA. And the Tour de France and the teams need to work together too.”

I don't think he's the slightest bit naive, I don't think he expects the UCI to do what he's suggesting. He's just outlining what should be done.

For example, “The UCI has known about it for many, many years and they still haven’t really done anything to change."

Pretty much.

Still, and as he points out, these are all common sense things the UCI should already be doing. The fact they aren't begs the question: why not? And, as well, when are they going to start?

Because they are corrupt and compromised. When? Sometime around the 10th of...Never...I'd imagine.

what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

Trying to be helpful? Wanting to see the sport cleaned up? Surely it's that simple?

I see your point. He is calling them out without calling them names, and challenging the sport to reform itself.

And I agree. Unless Blackcat knows something about LeMond that I don't (which is what I was asking), it looks like LeMond just wants what's best for the sport. I think it would be good if LeMond were running the UCI, or at least helping to run it.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

the lady doth protest too hard methinks

But, if so, what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

i) stay relevant
ii) do an Adidas on Armstrong's Nike. that is, allow Nike's branding to be seen as expedient and corrupt and you take the moral high ground. He is seeking to beat Lance.
iii) guilty conscience from his career. I am taking a leaf out of Helmut Roole's book on this.

If the peloton seek to destroy the "sport" from within, and I use the term sport tentatively. If they all Cancellara to get away with it, and have not rectified it from within, it does not deserve any following or commodification or an economy. It is a joke. The players needed to unionise against Cancellara, if they felt he was moto-doping.

Greg... meh. relevance deprivation syndrome.

 

[MarkvW]

Brian Cookson is a joke. Keep it up Brian!

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

the lady doth protest too hard methinks

But, if so, what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

i) stay relevant
ii) do an Adidas on Armstrong's Nike. that is, allow Nike's branding to be seen as expedient and corrupt and you take the moral high ground. He is seeking to beat Lance.
iii) guilty conscience from his career. I am taking a leaf out of Helmut Roole's book on this.

If the peloton seek to destroy the "sport" from within, and I use the term sport tentatively. If they all Cancellara to get away with it, and have not rectified it from within, it does not deserve any following or commodification or an economy. It is a joke. The players needed to unionise against Cancellara, if they felt he was moto-doping.

Greg... meh. relevance deprivation syndrome.

Interesting. Your three reasons might explain his motivation (conscious and unconscious), but that doesn't necessarily mean his role is pernicious. Could be constructive.

I came back to this forum thinking the sport is gone, a joke as you say, and beyond redemption. I haven't followed it since 2011. News of the found bike motor brought me back, just to put the full stop on the end of the sentence. But having spent the better part of two days here trying to locate Alberto Contador within the context and trajectory of the sport, and having found to my surprise that my estimation of him is pretty high, I now think that there is still hope for reforming pro cycling. The teams themselves will reform it, along with the sponsors remaining, when the situation forces them to. Their economic self-interest is at stake.

Core fans have a say in it, too. We proved that, arguably, in how the Armstrong thing played out.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

the lady doth protest too hard methinks

But, if so, what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

i) stay relevant
ii) do an Adidas on Armstrong's Nike. that is, allow Nike's branding to be seen as expedient and corrupt and you take the moral high ground. He is seeking to beat Lance.
iii) guilty conscience from his career. I am taking a leaf out of Helmut Roole's book on this.

If the peloton seek to destroy the "sport" from within, and I use the term sport tentatively. If they all Cancellara to get away with it, and have not rectified it from within, it does not deserve any following or commodification or an economy. It is a joke. The players needed to unionise against Cancellara, if they felt he was moto-doping.

Greg... meh. relevance deprivation syndrome.

Interesting. Your three reasons might explain his motivation (conscious and unconscious), but that doesn't necessarily mean his role is pernicious. Could be constructive.

I came back to this forum thinking the sport is gone, a joke as you say, and beyond redemption. I haven't followed it since 2011. News of the found bike motor brought me back, just to put the full stop on the end of the sentence. But having spent the better part of two days here trying to locate Alberto Contador within the context and trajectory of the sport, and having found to my surprise that my estimation of him is pretty high, I now think that there is still hope for reforming pro cycling. The teams themselves will reform it, along with the sponsors remaining, when the situation forces them to. Their economic self-interest is at stake.

Core fans have a say in it, too. We proved that, arguably, in how the Armstrong thing played out.

The UCI is really damaging the high end 'emulate the anorexic boy' bicycle market. LeMond could be acting out of pure economic self interest here. I don't think it's necessarily an ego thing. This could REALLY end up being bad for the expensive bike business.

 

[Anaconda]

Re: LeMond: Six Steps to Eradicate Moto-doping

Personally, I think LeMond is naive about the role and functioning of the UCI, and you'd think he shouldn't be after what he's experienced over the last fifteen years or so. But maybe he is just hopeful. Who knows, maybe he has reason for hope, reasons to trust in the good intentions of the UCI.

Interesting, I simply read it as what he says. "“Testing needs to be removed to an independent group like WADA. And the Tour de France and the teams need to work together too.”

I don't think he's the slightest bit naive, I don't think he expects the UCI to do what he's suggesting. He's just outlining what should be done.

For example, “The UCI has known about it for many, many years and they still haven’t really done anything to change."

Pretty much.

Still, and as he points out, these are all common sense things the UCI should already be doing. The fact they aren't begs the question: why not? And, as well, when are they going to start?

Because they are corrupt and compromised. When? Sometime around the 10th of...Never...I'd imagine.

what do you think is behind his excessive protest? Jealousy? Complicity? Neurosis? Political maneuvering? Something else entirely? And what of his six point list?

Trying to be helpful? Wanting to see the sport cleaned up? Surely it's that simple?

Why did the UCI not request the independent/just down the hallway CADF determine and administer the processes to test for tech doping???

 

[sniper]

Brian Cookson OBE
‏@BrianCooksonUCI

History's just been made. Well done @eviee_alicee for this first U23 Women World title and to all riders #CXZolder16 https://twitter.com/BrianCooksonUCI/status/693416275209515008

obvious yet urgent question: was her bike tested?
I don't think it was.
Yet Cookson's next tweets are:

Technological fraud is unacceptable. We want the minority who may consider cheating to know that, increasingly ... there is no place to hide, and sooner or later they will pay for the damage they’re causing to our sport https://twitter.com/BrianCooksonUCI/status/693729336759861248

If you don't check for motors, how do you know if its a minority.
Since Cookson is in charge, UCI have done nothing of note to stop motorization, yet "increasingly there is no place to hide"?
legit.

And "sooner or later they will pay"... come again?

What a clown.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Cookson: "sooner or later they will pay"

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Cookson: "sooner or later they will pay"

I nominate this for post of the decade.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Calling Cookson a "clown" now there is an interesting turn of phrase.

As to Greg, I am with Red on this. I think he is just looking in and seeing a mess that just need not have been a mess. Fairly simple and easy things for people of action to do. Instead the UCI has done nothing like that and the sport is a joke run by "clowns". The Grimaldi brothers are in charge. 1 week on and it is not just Femke and her dreadful family and friends who are trying to get a story out there, we still know nothing of how many in the Belgian Fed knew, who gave the tip off and how long all these bods in the Belgian Fed knew. And nobody has answered about all those Belgian cycling positives that aren't on any web site anywhere as "banned". Why aren't the UCI recording them as banned ?

The UCI is less transparent than when Pat was in control.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Cookson: "sooner or later they will pay"

I nominate this for post of the decade.

Someone just needs to photoshop a cigar in Cance's hand instead of the mic

 

[hrotha]

He's not actually suggesting that WADA test for motors, is he. He's like, "an independent group, sort of like WADA but obviously not WADA itself, that would be silly".

 

[fmk_RoI]

Banning bike changes and tagging bikes? Is LeMond channeling the ghost of Henri Desgrange? What'll the next suggestion be, that the race organiser provide standardised, anonymous bikes?

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

The UCI is really damaging the high end 'emulate the anorexic boy' bicycle market. LeMond could be acting out of pure economic self interest here. I don't think it's necessarily an ego thing. This could REALLY end up being bad for the expensive bike business.

Excellent point. Funny, too.

Brian Cookson OBE
‏@BrianCooksonUCI

History's just been made. Well done @eviee_alicee for this first U23 Women World title and to all riders #CXZolder16 https://twitter.com/BrianCooksonUCI/status/693416275209515008

obvious yet urgent question: was her bike tested?
I don't think it was.
Yet Cookson's next tweets are:

Technological fraud is unacceptable. We want the minority who may consider cheating to know that, increasingly ... there is no place to hide, and sooner or later they will pay for the damage they’re causing to our sport https://twitter.com/BrianCooksonUCI/status/693729336759861248

If you don't check for motors, how do you know if its a minority.
Since Cookson is in charge, UCI have done nothing of note to stop motorization, yet "increasingly there is no place to hide"?
legit.

And "sooner or later they will pay"... come again?

What a clown.

Yep. And good point about testing of the U23 rider's bike. UCI it seems could not care less.

Banning bike changes and tagging bikes? Is LeMond channeling the ghost of Henri Desgrange? What'll the next suggestion be, that the race organiser provide standardised, anonymous bikes?

If you read the article linked in my OP, where his comments within the list are a great deal more extensive than what I quoted here, he explains why bike changes in the race are, in general, not needed.

He's not actually suggesting that WADA test for motors, is he. He's like, "an independent group, sort of like WADA but obviously not WADA itself, that would be silly".

Exactly right, I think (though he doesn't say motor testing by WADA would be silly).

Calling Cookson a "clown" now there is an interesting turn of phrase.

As to Greg, I am with Red on this. I think he is just looking in and seeing a mess that just need not have been a mess. Fairly simple and easy things for people of action to do. Instead the UCI has done nothing like that and the sport is a joke run by "clowns". The Grimaldi brothers are in charge. 1 week on and it is not just Femke and her dreadful family and friends who are trying to get a story out there, we still no nothing of how many in the Belgian Fed knew, who gave the tip off and how long all these bods in the Belgian Fed knew. And nobody has answered about all those Belgian cycling positives that aren't on any web site anywhere as "banned". Why aren't the UCI recording them as banned ?

The UCI is less transparent than when Phat was in control.

I think you are right.

From a recent World Tour race:

Photo © Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI)

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

If you read the article linked in my OP, where his comments within the list are a great deal more extensive than what I quoted here, he explains why bike changes in the race are, in general, not needed.

If you lightened up a little you might spot the attempt at humour in what was said.

And if you know your history you'll know why banning bike changes is pointless and unfair and leads to even more cheating.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

If you read the article linked in my OP, where his comments within the list are a great deal more extensive than what I quoted here, he explains why bike changes in the race are, in general, not needed.

If you lightened up a little you might spot the attempt at humour in what was said.

And if you know your history you'll know why banning bike changes is pointless and unfair and leads to even more cheating.

I confess I don't know my history as well as you. Can you explain "why banning bike changes is pointless and unfair and leads to even more cheating"?

 

[dwyatt]

Re: Re:

Cookson: "sooner or later they will pay"

Did he provide a price list? Armstong paid 1 million, not sure what the guys today are paying...

 

[papisimo98]

Lemond was an innovator with tech when he was a rider so what he has to say is very important.
Whether he wants the attention or is doing it out of his love for cycling, or both, it doesn't matter. People with this kind of drive really don't settle for second in anything in life so get over it.
He's correct on a lot of points.
1. All the bikes used in a race should be controlled.....period. Keep honest people honest.
2. His solutions to speed up yet keep checks thorough and spontaneous are good start.
3. Clear penalties.
4. Taking it seriously

Life is full of gray areas but putting a motor in your bike sucks ****.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Interesting. Your three reasons might explain his motivation (conscious and unconscious), but that doesn't necessarily mean his role is pernicious. Could be constructive.

I came back to this forum thinking the sport is gone, a joke as you say, and beyond redemption. I haven't followed it since 2011. News of the found bike motor brought me back, just to put the full stop on the end of the sentence. But having spent the better part of two days here trying to locate Alberto Contador within the context and trajectory of the sport, and having found to my surprise that my estimation of him is pretty high, I now think that there is still hope for reforming pro cycling. The teams themselves will reform it, along with the sponsors remaining, when the situation forces them to. Their economic self-interest is at stake.

Core fans have a say in it, too. We proved that, arguably, in how the Armstrong thing played out.

I dont think Lemond is pernicious. pernicious and magnanimous is a false dichotomy. but you said constructive, so I am not putting words in your mouth and Lemond=magnanimous.

I am coming down on the Helmut Roole side of likelihood.

But also I am now, now I am, I am now value neutral wrt doping.

What Lemond does have on his side, he is credible, and a high profile spokeman for the sport.

I think I have fallen in love with the sport for Clinic12 reasons, like Helmut Roole, but unlike Clinick12 as I did a volte face and Damascene2016 conversion when the Damascene conversion of today is no longer Paris on the Med/on the sea, or the Champs Elysses ceremony stage in 2016. It is a internecine, sry, an internecine. I gotta get my grammar correct.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

The UCI is really damaging the high end 'emulate the anorexic boy' bicycle market. LeMond could be acting out of pure economic self interest here. I don't think it's necessarily an ego thing. This could REALLY end up being bad for the expensive bike business.

Cannondale original owner leading the curve, early adopter with the moto-X business. Stupid business, never had the money for R&D to compete with the Japanese majors. Full Fumi Beppu market innit /alliterationz