A
Anonymous
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Don't you folks ever find it tiresome to just complain, speculate, and hypothesize all the time?
Get...................over................it.
Get...................over................it.
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CircleJerkCaptain said:Don't you folks ever find it tiresome to just complain, speculate, and hypothesize all the time?
Get...................over................it.
BroDeal said:Armstrong has been proven to have doped; but, as you say, no one comes out looking very good in all this. It is all pretty sordid.
I'm a big Lemond fan but I agree, nobody's looking good here. It does raise a larger question. To clean the sport up involves a lot of doping controversies and body blows the sport is increasingly ill-equiped to handle. So when is it time to shut up? Hypothetical situation- the dope testers announce at the end of the Tour that they have come up with a test for blood doping(your own blood). On the face of it this would seem like great news. However, what if the entire top 20 on GC test positive? I realize this won't happen but the point is that cleaning up the sport could very well destroy it.
marinoni said:I'm a big Lemond fan but I agree, nobody's looking good here. It does raise a larger question. To clean the sport up involves a lot of doping controversies and body blows the sport is increasingly ill-equiped to handle. So when is it time to shut up? Hypothetical situation- the dope testers announce at the end of the Tour that they have come up with a test for blood doping(your own blood). On the face of it this would seem like great news. However, what if the entire top 20 on GC test positive? I realize this won't happen but the point is that cleaning up the sport could very well destroy it.
Robert Merivel said:Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell.QUOTE]
Maybe Greg's body as something to do with the 30+ pieces of buckshot that are still lodged throughout his body, that is alot of lead. What kind of havoc do you think a quarter pound of lead in your internals for twenty years will do?
Did you ever think his weight gain might have something to do with that rather than sitting on the couch chugging beer?
stephens said:Proof? What we have is the word of journalists about a research project in which a bunch of old samples were taken out of storage that researchers/journalists claim match Armstrong's log numbers, and these samples were tested with new, unproven methods (it was a research project, after all), in an environment that was not transparent, had no way for verification (no "b" sample), and no way for Armstrong to defend himself against any claims. To some, this may be "proof". But I doubt any objective person would be persuaded by that.
I mean, come on. After all the hundreds upon hundreds of tests by half a dozen or more different authorities...this is all you can come up with as 'proof' ?
i'm not saying that i think he was/is clean. i'm just saying that the claims of "proof" are pretty weak ones. the fact is that we don't really have anything more than circumstantial evidence.
runninboy said:Robert Merivel said:Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell.QUOTE]
Maybe Greg's body as something to do with the 30+ pieces of buckshot that are still lodged throughout his body, that is alot of lead. What kind of havoc do you think a quarter pound of lead in your internals for twenty years will do?
Did you ever think his weight gain might have something to do with that rather than sitting on the couch chugging beer?
rhubroma said:Proof. Pay no attention to what the courts said in this matter. In high profile cases like this, there are too many special interests involved in terms of profit to nail Armstrong. Plus he just dumps gobbs of his own money into his sly lawyers and they get him off the hook.
That's how it works. Remember when it comes to prosecuting someone like Lance for his sporting fraud, with corporations like Nike having invested millions in him, with his own finantial backing, it's very, very (if not impossible) for the judge to convict him. Just goes to show you that in our corporate and capitalist world, money can buy justice, as it allways has, so nothing has changed.
But anybody who has practiced the sport with a head on their shoulders, knows that a Tour winner in this day and age (let alone someone who's won it 7 times in a row), can't win without blood doping. This is a fact. Not an opinion. 100% true. It is impossible to win the Tour without blood doping. And, sorry if I sound insulting, but anybody who follows the sport who doesn't believe it is just stupid. And Armstrong was doped to his teeth even before his cancer as he himself admited to his doctor, for which the growth hormones probably explained the rapid progress of his disease. Afterward his crew made a science of blood doping between 99-2005--that's the truth.
Bagster said:Amazing, the guy asks for proof and you give him pure conjecture, true to form again. Everything you stated in your last paragraph is just pure allegation without a shred of evidence to back it up. The first two paragraphs are just your usual anti Lance conspiracy rant.
Some things never change.![]()
Angliru said:So we are to believe that Armstrong is the only professional cyclist that went to Dr. Ferari for just his training expertise?
Robert Merivel said:runninboy said:No, I believe he gained it from sitting on the couch and chugging beer, and gourmandizing on lard laden mexican food and other junk foods for most of his life. All that cheap/toxic oil in his diet made his liver quiver...toxic liver dumps into skin...that is why his complexion was/is bad.
I'm not saying LeMond is a rat...
"Lead acetate (7.5 mg/kg ip) was administered to rat pups from birth to 10 days of age. This dose did not impair weight gain or produce overt signs of lead toxicity. The animals were sacrificed at 10, 15, 20, or 30 days of age for enzymatic analysis or morphometric assessment. Thickness of the pyramidal cell layer of the hippocampal formation and of the granular cell layer of the dentate gyrus was measured. The activity of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) and butyrylcholinesterase (BuChE) was determined in homogenates from separate brain regions. Significant (p < 0.05) reductions of AChE activity were produced at 10 days in the hippocampus (40%) and medulla oblongata (17%). Although cerebral AChE was reduced by 17%, the reduction of hippocampal AChE (32%) was not significant nor were decreases in AChE observed in either the cerebellum, midbrain, corpus striatum, or medulla oblongata of 20-day-old lead-treated rats. No inhibition of BuChE activity was observed at 10 days. However, BuChE of the midbrain, hippocampus, and cerebrum of 15-day-old animals was decreased by 32, 37, and 12%, respectively. Similrly, BuChE activity of homogenates from the cerebrum, hippocampus, and midbrain of 20-day-old lead-treated rats was reduced by 35, 35, and 37%, respectively. No significant decreases in AChE or BuChE activity were produced in brain homogenates from 30-day-old animals. Measurements of hippocampal cell layer thickness and distance from the hippocampus to the cerebral cortex indicated that lead administration produced 10–15% reductions in both parameters. The results suggest that lead exposure may produce a reversible impairment of AChE and BuChE in specific brain regions of the developing rat brain. However, morphological effects of lead exposure may persist after the effects on BuChE and AChE activities are no longer discernible."
mabuka said:Lance won 7 tours and has never been proven to use PED's in or out of competition while also being the most tested...those are the facts. The EPO claim in 2005 is complete B.S. A corrupt french lab in France, leaking info (against the rules I might add), to a corrupt french newspaper owned by a corrupt agency wo runs the Tour de France. Hmmmm.
Lots of athletes...especially the one's at the top...have egos...some don't. They want to win...that's their nature. Noone is asking anyone to like them.
Robert Merivel said:Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell. They should take Mount's advice.
Maybe when Greg is 93 and Lance is 80 something, they can do a Master's race against each other to finally bury the axe.
mabuka said:Lance won 7 tours and has never been proven to use PED's in or out of competition while also being the most tested...those are the facts. The EPO claim in 2005 is complete B.S. A corrupt french lab in France, leaking info (against the rules I might add), to a corrupt french newspaper owned by a corrupt agency wo runs the Tour de France. Hmmmm.
Lots of athletes...especially the one's at the top...have egos...some don't. They want to win...that's their nature. Noone is asking anyone to like them.
mabuka said:I'm sorry to inform Bagster that most of his statement is "opinion" only and not fact..oddly enough not backed up with any facts bu tonly more opinions. He (or she) needs to learn the difference between objective and subjective....in my opinion.
Bagster said:My post earlier was a statement, I was not contending anything so what facts would you be referring to. And objectively speaking, it was my subjective opinion that a lot of the 'facts' posted by the dopies are not facts, they are allegations that are unproven, because if they were proven LA would be banned from the sport. Last I looked he was still riding and doing pretty well, showing a lot more racing nous than some of his teammates.
mabuka said:Lance and Landis' scenarios aren't even close to being the same. Landis's samples were from the race he just finished. In my opinion Landis was innocent and he got scammed by the same lab. I have no proof and it is solely my opinion.
SlantParallelogram said:They never should have started the witch hunt for performance enhancing drugs. I would bet that everyone, including Lemond and Armstrong have doped at one point or another.