Lemond vs. Armstrong

[Anonymous]

Don't you folks ever find it tiresome to just complain, speculate, and hypothesize all the time?

Get...................over................it.

 

[Robert Merivel]

Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell. They should take Mount's advice.

Maybe when Greg is 93 and Lance is 80 something, they can do a Master's race against each other to finally bury the axe.

 

[BroDeal]

Don't you folks ever find it tiresome to just complain, speculate, and hypothesize all the time?

Get...................over................it.

Is this a new version of Jack, BYU, or Amster?

It's a forum. What do expect people will discuss if they do not complain, speculate, or hypothesize?

 

[marinoni]

Armstrong has been proven to have doped; but, as you say, no one comes out looking very good in all this. It is all pretty sordid.

I'm a big Lemond fan but I agree, nobody's looking good here. It does raise a larger question. To clean the sport up involves a lot of doping controversies and body blows the sport is increasingly ill-equiped to handle. So when is it time to shut up? Hypothetical situation- the dope testers announce at the end of the Tour that they have come up with a test for blood doping(your own blood). On the face of it this would seem like great news. However, what if the entire top 20 on GC test positive? I realize this won't happen but the point is that cleaning up the sport could very well destroy it.

 

[BroDeal]

I'm a big Lemond fan but I agree, nobody's looking good here. It does raise a larger question. To clean the sport up involves a lot of doping controversies and body blows the sport is increasingly ill-equiped to handle. So when is it time to shut up? Hypothetical situation- the dope testers announce at the end of the Tour that they have come up with a test for blood doping(your own blood). On the face of it this would seem like great news. However, what if the entire top 20 on GC test positive? I realize this won't happen but the point is that cleaning up the sport could very well destroy it.

I tend to think that one of the reasons the UCI refused to test for CERA in the 2008 Giro and 2007 Tour samples is because they feared a huge number of positives would crater the sport. Dr. Fuentes was advising clients to take CERA before he was busted in 2006. Go back a few years and the GT contenders could be obliterated.

I also think that may be the reason why they have resisted obvious moves like testing the top fifty riders between two consecutive mountain stages in the Tour for testosterone using the IRMS test. With no warning, you can bet that a heck of a lot more riders than Landis would test positive. Heck, if the UCI is going to test Dekker's past samples for Dynepo, why not test a lot of riders' urine samples for testosterone using IRMS? Go back before the AFLD started testing for testosterone using IRMS without the initial T:TE screen and most riders would probably test positive.

I don't think the drip drip drip approach will ever work as well as a few massive blows that wipe out big chunks of the old guard.

We are probably off topic here...

 

[runninboy]

Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell.QUOTE]

Maybe Greg's body as something to do with the 30+ pieces of buckshot that are still lodged throughout his body, that is alot of lead. What kind of havoc do you think a quarter pound of lead in your internals for twenty years will do?
Did you ever think his weight gain might have something to do with that rather than sitting on the couch chugging beer?

 

[rhubroma]

Proof? What we have is the word of journalists about a research project in which a bunch of old samples were taken out of storage that researchers/journalists claim match Armstrong's log numbers, and these samples were tested with new, unproven methods (it was a research project, after all), in an environment that was not transparent, had no way for verification (no "b" sample), and no way for Armstrong to defend himself against any claims. To some, this may be "proof". But I doubt any objective person would be persuaded by that.

I mean, come on. After all the hundreds upon hundreds of tests by half a dozen or more different authorities...this is all you can come up with as 'proof' ?

i'm not saying that i think he was/is clean. i'm just saying that the claims of "proof" are pretty weak ones. the fact is that we don't really have anything more than circumstantial evidence.

Proof. Pay no attention to what the courts said in this matter. In high profile cases like this, there are too many special interests involved in terms of profit to nail Armstrong. Plus he just dumps gobbs of his own money into his sly lawyers and they get him off the hook.

That's how it works. Remember when it comes to prosecuting someone like Lance for his sporting fraud, with corporations like Nike having invested millions in him, with his own finantial backing, it's very, very dificult (if not impossible) for the judge to convict him. Just goes to show you that in our corporate and capitalist world, money can buy justice, as it allways has, so nothing has changed.

But anybody who has practiced the sport with a head on their shoulders, knows that a Tour winner in this day and age (let alone someone who's won it 7 times in a row), can't win without blood doping. This is a fact. Not an opinion. 100% true. It is impossible to win the Tour without blood doping. And, sorry if I sound insulting, but anybody who follows the sport who doesn't believe it is just stupid. And Armstrong was doped to his teeth even before his cancer as he himself admited to his doctor, for which the growth hormones probably explained the rapid progress of his disease. Afterward his crew made a science of blood doping between 99-2005--that's the truth.

 

[Robert Merivel]

Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell.QUOTE]

Maybe Greg's body as something to do with the 30+ pieces of buckshot that are still lodged throughout his body, that is alot of lead. What kind of havoc do you think a quarter pound of lead in your internals for twenty years will do?
Did you ever think his weight gain might have something to do with that rather than sitting on the couch chugging beer?

No, I believe he gained it from sitting on the couch and chugging beer, and gourmandizing on lard laden mexican food and other junk foods for most of his life. All that cheap/toxic oil in his diet made his liver quiver...toxic liver dumps into skin...that is why his complexion was/is bad.

I'm not saying LeMond is a rat...

"Lead acetate (7.5 mg/kg ip) was administered to rat pups from birth to 10 days of age. This dose did not impair weight gain or produce overt signs of lead toxicity. The animals were sacrificed at 10, 15, 20, or 30 days of age for enzymatic analysis or morphometric assessment. Thickness of the pyramidal cell layer of the hippocampal formation and of the granular cell layer of the dentate gyrus was measured. The activity of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) and butyrylcholinesterase (BuChE) was determined in homogenates from separate brain regions. Significant (p < 0.05) reductions of AChE activity were produced at 10 days in the hippocampus (40%) and medulla oblongata (17%). Although cerebral AChE was reduced by 17%, the reduction of hippocampal AChE (32%) was not significant nor were decreases in AChE observed in either the cerebellum, midbrain, corpus striatum, or medulla oblongata of 20-day-old lead-treated rats. No inhibition of BuChE activity was observed at 10 days. However, BuChE of the midbrain, hippocampus, and cerebrum of 15-day-old animals was decreased by 32, 37, and 12%, respectively. Similrly, BuChE activity of homogenates from the cerebrum, hippocampus, and midbrain of 20-day-old lead-treated rats was reduced by 35, 35, and 37%, respectively. No significant decreases in AChE or BuChE activity were produced in brain homogenates from 30-day-old animals. Measurements of hippocampal cell layer thickness and distance from the hippocampus to the cerebral cortex indicated that lead administration produced 10–15% reductions in both parameters. The results suggest that lead exposure may produce a reversible impairment of AChE and BuChE in specific brain regions of the developing rat brain. However, morphological effects of lead exposure may persist after the effects on BuChE and AChE activities are no longer discernible."

 

[Bagster]

Proof. Pay no attention to what the courts said in this matter. In high profile cases like this, there are too many special interests involved in terms of profit to nail Armstrong. Plus he just dumps gobbs of his own money into his sly lawyers and they get him off the hook.

That's how it works. Remember when it comes to prosecuting someone like Lance for his sporting fraud, with corporations like Nike having invested millions in him, with his own finantial backing, it's very, very (if not impossible) for the judge to convict him. Just goes to show you that in our corporate and capitalist world, money can buy justice, as it allways has, so nothing has changed.

But anybody who has practiced the sport with a head on their shoulders, knows that a Tour winner in this day and age (let alone someone who's won it 7 times in a row), can't win without blood doping. This is a fact. Not an opinion. 100% true. It is impossible to win the Tour without blood doping. And, sorry if I sound insulting, but anybody who follows the sport who doesn't believe it is just stupid. And Armstrong was doped to his teeth even before his cancer as he himself admited to his doctor, for which the growth hormones probably explained the rapid progress of his disease. Afterward his crew made a science of blood doping between 99-2005--that's the truth.

Amazing, the guy asks for proof and you give him pure conjecture, true to form again. Everything you stated in your last paragraph is just pure allegation without a shred of evidence to back it up. The first two paragraphs are just your usual anti Lance conspiracy rant.

Some things never change.

 

[rhubroma]

Amazing, the guy asks for proof and you give him pure conjecture, true to form again. Everything you stated in your last paragraph is just pure allegation without a shred of evidence to back it up. The first two paragraphs are just your usual anti Lance conspiracy rant.

Some things never change.

And you put far too much faith in our legal systems, while believing that, in this case, the myths are fact. And I'm sure they are the most beautiful myths that you know.

Do you really think that if the lab had busted a third rank pro who finished 160th at the Tour on the same identical evidence, that the rider would have gotten off the hook? If you do then you're out of touch with reality.

Because it was Lance a different measure was applied to the same weight, because of the interests and psychological pressures involved. Landis had banked on the same treatment in his case, but evidently doesn't pull the weight that Lance does.

 

[Angliru]

So we are to believe that Armstrong is the only professional cyclist that went to Dr. Ferari for just his training expertise?

 

[nobody]

So we are to believe that Armstrong is the only professional cyclist that went to Dr. Ferari for just his training expertise?

Yes, and of course for his wonderful drinks like special Dr.Ferrari orange juice

 

[Archibald]

No, I believe he gained it from sitting on the couch and chugging beer, and gourmandizing on lard laden mexican food and other junk foods for most of his life. All that cheap/toxic oil in his diet made his liver quiver...toxic liver dumps into skin...that is why his complexion was/is bad.

I'm not saying LeMond is a rat...

"Lead acetate (7.5 mg/kg ip) was administered to rat pups from birth to 10 days of age. This dose did not impair weight gain or produce overt signs of lead toxicity. The animals were sacrificed at 10, 15, 20, or 30 days of age for enzymatic analysis or morphometric assessment. Thickness of the pyramidal cell layer of the hippocampal formation and of the granular cell layer of the dentate gyrus was measured. The activity of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) and butyrylcholinesterase (BuChE) was determined in homogenates from separate brain regions. Significant (p < 0.05) reductions of AChE activity were produced at 10 days in the hippocampus (40%) and medulla oblongata (17%). Although cerebral AChE was reduced by 17%, the reduction of hippocampal AChE (32%) was not significant nor were decreases in AChE observed in either the cerebellum, midbrain, corpus striatum, or medulla oblongata of 20-day-old lead-treated rats. No inhibition of BuChE activity was observed at 10 days. However, BuChE of the midbrain, hippocampus, and cerebrum of 15-day-old animals was decreased by 32, 37, and 12%, respectively. Similrly, BuChE activity of homogenates from the cerebrum, hippocampus, and midbrain of 20-day-old lead-treated rats was reduced by 35, 35, and 37%, respectively. No significant decreases in AChE or BuChE activity were produced in brain homogenates from 30-day-old animals. Measurements of hippocampal cell layer thickness and distance from the hippocampus to the cerebral cortex indicated that lead administration produced 10–15% reductions in both parameters. The results suggest that lead exposure may produce a reversible impairment of AChE and BuChE in specific brain regions of the developing rat brain. However, morphological effects of lead exposure may persist after the effects on BuChE and AChE activities are no longer discernible."

there is no test on animals that is so accurately related to humans that they don't need to re-do the entire tests on human subjects - ie; any test on rats (or any other animal) with any attempt to make the connection to humans is a waste of time...

 

[mabuka]

Lance won 7 tours and has never been proven to use PED's in or out of competition while also being the most tested...those are the facts. The EPO claim in 2005 is complete B.S. A corrupt french lab in France, leaking info (against the rules I might add), to a corrupt french newspaper owned by a corrupt agency wo runs the Tour de France. Hmmmm.

Lots of athletes...especially the one's at the top...have egos...some don't. They want to win...that's their nature. Noone is asking anyone to like them.

 

[mabuka]

Lance and Landis' scenarios aren't even close to being the same. Landis's samples were from the race he just finished. In my opinion Landis was innocent and he got scammed by the same lab. I have no proof and it is solely my opinion.

 

[mabuka]

I'm sorry to inform Bagster that most of his statement is "opinion" only and not fact..oddly enough not backed up with any facts bu tonly more opinions. He (or she) needs to learn the difference between objective and subjective....in my opinion.

 

[elapid]

Lance won 7 tours and has never been proven to use PED's in or out of competition while also being the most tested...those are the facts. The EPO claim in 2005 is complete B.S. A corrupt french lab in France, leaking info (against the rules I might add), to a corrupt french newspaper owned by a corrupt agency wo runs the Tour de France. Hmmmm.

Lots of athletes...especially the one's at the top...have egos...some don't. They want to win...that's their nature. Noone is asking anyone to like them.

Do the research. Firstly, Lance claims he is the most tested athlete. No facts to back this up and plenty of evidence from track and field athletes that his claims are BS. Secondly, because he has never tested positive doesn't mean he hasn't doped. To use the counter argument, he should have tested positive to HCG prior to being diagnosed with testicular cancer (normal levels < 5, Lance's level 109,000) but he was not despite being frequently tested. Either the UCI did not report the positive or Lance used some sort of masking agent. Thirdly, if the EPO samples you are referring to are the results of an analysis of an EPO test, then get your facts correct. The EPO samples were from 1999, not 2005. This was the result of a validation of an EPO test. An l'Equipe reporter knew of this research and asked and received Lance's permission to access his codes. This reporter then matched the codes with the positives from the EPO validation tests. No leaking of information by the lab, no subterfuge by ASO or the lab. Good investigative reporting, no more or less.

 

[callhenpen]

Unfortunately, these verbal skirmishes reflects the darkest side of these incredible athletes. Greg was my first cycling hero. I liked him in almost every way, back then. Since his retirement, he's become bitter inside dealing with his personal ghosts. Too bad. Lance is another kind of hero and whereas I didn't care for him so much in the beginning, he seems to have mellowed out somewhat since. Maybe it's because he's stayed in shape where as LeMond's body went all to hell. They should take Mount's advice.

Maybe when Greg is 93 and Lance is 80 something, they can do a Master's race against each other to finally bury the axe.

+1
Lemond was the rider who made me interested cycling and i remember pretending to be him riding hills as a high schooler in 86. His feuds with LA and Landis have really made me take another look at Greg. I have also rewatched all of his TDF wins with a different lense and I am far less impressed. He claims his bitterness comes from watching his career get swallowed up by doping riders.

Like most, I am almost certain LA doped (especially so B4 the cancer), but I really wish Greg had taken a more statesperson-like stance in this.

 

[Bagster]

Lance won 7 tours and has never been proven to use PED's in or out of competition while also being the most tested...those are the facts. The EPO claim in 2005 is complete B.S. A corrupt french lab in France, leaking info (against the rules I might add), to a corrupt french newspaper owned by a corrupt agency wo runs the Tour de France. Hmmmm.

Lots of athletes...especially the one's at the top...have egos...some don't. They want to win...that's their nature. Noone is asking anyone to like them.

No, no, no...the French aren't corrupt, only Lance is corrupt. Didn't you read Rhubarbs post? Everyone is frightened of Lance and and overlook his indiscretions and many positive dope tests. Why? Because the French really love him. Lance actually pays the doping authorities to put up a front of being anti Lance because it diverts attention from the real issues.

 

[Bagster]

I'm sorry to inform Bagster that most of his statement is "opinion" only and not fact..oddly enough not backed up with any facts bu tonly more opinions. He (or she) needs to learn the difference between objective and subjective....in my opinion.

My post earlier was a statement, I was not contending anything so what facts would you be referring to. And objectively speaking, it was my subjective opinion that a lot of the 'facts' posted by the dopies are not facts, they are allegations that are unproven, because if they were proven LA would be banned from the sport. Last I looked he was still riding and doing pretty well, showing a lot more racing nous than some of his teammates.

 

[nobody]

My post earlier was a statement, I was not contending anything so what facts would you be referring to. And objectively speaking, it was my subjective opinion that a lot of the 'facts' posted by the dopies are not facts, they are allegations that are unproven, because if they were proven LA would be banned from the sport. Last I looked he was still riding and doing pretty well, showing a lot more racing nous than some of his teammates.

To say he rode or he is riding clean are allegations too.

As exemple many believed that Marion was running clean for a long time but we know it wasn't true.

EPO was found in 6 + 2 of alleged Lance's 1999 urine samples. Fact.
Thoses urine samples were identified by an anonymous number different on all samples.
Thoses numbers are linked to Lance's urine testing.

Witnesses heard him requesting doping. One of them injected him PEDs. Facts!

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Lance and Landis' scenarios aren't even close to being the same. Landis's samples were from the race he just finished. In my opinion Landis was innocent and he got scammed by the same lab. I have no proof and it is solely my opinion.

anyone who thinks Landis got scammed by the lab is an absolute wally.

- The labs don't know which samples belong to whom.
- The people working in the labs are technicians who don't give a sh*t about cycling. It's just their job.
- Have you any idea how difficult it is to "doctor" a urine sample? Do you really think they can just pour a few drops of testosterone into the pi** pot? Idiocy! The testosterone needs to be metabolised for starters, and it needs to fall within realistic quantity parameters to be convincing. Doing this would be nigh on impossible. You would need about a thousand practice samples to work on before you got it right.

Or - you can just accept that GC riders in Grand tours have a history of doping, and testosterone use is widespread, and occasionally someone is going to get caught. Even nice guys from the US!

 

[podilato]

I think that Greg Lemond should be congratulated for being one of the few to take on the sport's heirarchy. Contrary to what people believe, Greg talks about a lot of other things besides Mr Armstrong. In his recent speech at the Play the Game conference in the UK, he talked specifically about LA for no more than 10 minutes in a speech lasting almost an hour. He even says that he lays the blame primarily at the officials and not the athletes.

I agree that he is not the most articulate person in the world or the best orator. However, if eveyone asked the questions he does then things might be different.

I think that a lot of Armstrong and Landis supporters are like the people in cults who genuinely believe that when they die spaceships will come down and take them away. What we need is a lot more sceptics like Greg LeMond.

 

[SlantParallelogram]

They never should have started the witch hunt for performance enhancing drugs. I would bet that everyone, including Lemond and Armstrong have doped at one point or another.

 

[byu123]

They never should have started the witch hunt for performance enhancing drugs. I would bet that everyone, including Lemond and Armstrong have doped at one point or another.

Yeah! I'm certain Coppi had a time machine . . . transformed himself to the future . . . got EPO injections directly from Ferrarri . . . transformed himself back . . . and THAT is why he was so good. You would have to be a total dumba$$ to ever believe that someone could be that dominate without doping. You are a neophyte and a fool if you believe otherwise.

Conspiracy theories I read on the Internet attest to such. FACT!