Merry Christmas: Verbruggen Still in Charge of Cycling!

[DirtyWorks]

Recipient of many threads, Hein Verbruggen, is still in charge of cycling, for life!

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1032712/exclusive-verbruggen-to-remain-uci-honorary-president-after-reaching-agreement-to-end-legal-threat-following-circ-report

Apparently Cookson isn't too happy about the settlement...
http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1032769/verbruggen-alleges-cookson-and-uci-breached-agreement-by-failing-to-pay-legal-costs

One old thread
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=18609&start=260

This was too good to stay hidden in the Cookson thread.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

.............how much real control does hein maintain............how long will it last...........op writes 'life'

..............i wonder.............

Mark L

UCI management committee long ago bestowed the lifetime appointment to Verbruggen.

If Cookson's comments are to be believed, Verbruggen is still involved, at least making grief for Cookson.

 

[Benotti69]

Considering most who work for UCI at present probably worked for Hein as well, then Cookson being the newboy is probably having difficulty keeping Hein out of the loop.

If the management committee made him Hon Pres for Life then maybe the management committee can unmake him Hon Pres for Life, but they are all his mates and maybe people at IOC want to see Hein as Hon Pres for Life at UCI.......sporting federations, cesspits of corruption.

 

[sniper]

I liked this from Hein, in his response to the CIRC report:

Looking back, I am still firmly of the conviction that, given the financial and staff constraints the UCI had at the time, we couldn’t have done anything much differently. Indeed the CIRC acknowledges that, at the time, the UCI was one of the best federations in terms of its anti-doping policy. Also the anti-doping policy was reported, discussed and approved regularly at the meetings of the UCI management committee and also at the UCI congress where also the current UCI president was a delegate for many years.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/news/circ-report-statement-hein-verbruggen_362509#7pEWUl5guWafViXG.99

subtle.

 

[sniper]

This was the second public response from Hein, with special regards to the attemtp to take away his honorary title:
http://www.demorgen.be/sport/integraal-de-brief-van-hein-verbruggen-b3390712/

I have the strong impression that both Messrs. Cookson and Gibbs (there are a number of reports that suggest Mr. Gibbs is in fact the "acting" UCI President and it was, by the way, Mr. Gibbs who took the decision to have all computers confiscated the day of the election, even before the Congress was finished, as he told me himself in November 2013) seem to believe that the whole CIRC-saga is over following the publication of the report and the delivery of the much sought after "evidence" that allows them to take away my honorary title.

Dear Friends and Management Committee Members, it is definitely not going to be that easy.

Well seems Hein is a man of his word.
Cookson, Verbruggen's *** indeed.

 

[MarkvW]

My New Year's Wish is for ASO to totally defy the UCI on race rules. Please!

 

[thehog]

Re:

I liked this from Hein, in his response to the CIRC report:

Looking back, I am still firmly of the conviction that, given the financial and staff constraints the UCI had at the time, we couldn’t have done anything much differently. Indeed the CIRC acknowledges that, at the time, the UCI was one of the best federations in terms of its anti-doping policy. Also the anti-doping policy was reported, discussed and approved regularly at the meetings of the UCI management committee and also at the UCI congress where also the current UCI president was a delegate for many years.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2015/03/news/circ-report-statement-hein-verbruggen_362509#7pEWUl5guWafViXG.99

subtle.

Agreed, I think Cookson likes to present himself as a fresh face, whereas he's been on the scene, embedded deep in the UCI through the dark era.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

With credits to @digger_forum and @RogerPielkeJr

Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

http://leastthing.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/verbruggen-files-ioc-ethics-complaint.html

"Hein Verbruggen, the former head of the UCI which oversees cycling, has filed an ethics complaint against WADA and USADA. He specifically names D i c k Pound and David Howman at WADA and Travis Tygart and Bill Bock at USADA.

"WADA's most despicable action was its attempt (together with USADA) to have the Director of the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne, Professor Martial Saugay, sign a false statement that Armstrong had tested positive in the 2001 Tour of Switzerland and that Verbrugegn/UCI had attempted to hid this positive test under the table. ...

"....For me this comes very close to criminal behaviour."

OK so we know that in the World according to Verbruggen - the fact that Lance tests positive at the 1999 tour, but the UCI notify him and then allow him to google some medication with the offending drug in and then get a dodgy doctor to sign a post dated TUE and present it to the UCI means, in Hein's World, Lance never tested positive, because, honestly they thought the TUE that had not been presented at the time of test, but was now in their hands, was genuine. (Just no end to what these scallywags will think of next !)

So what have we got here ? Hein is unlikely to be filing this to the IOC unless he has got some prior notice that when he files it, it will be received and viewed seriously. Is this the precursor to asking Cookson for his legal fees again ?

Is Hein still on the IOC ? Is Pat still on the IOC ? What bit of the account did Martial say wasn't true - the bit about Hein being under a table at the time ?

https://twitter.com/RogerPielkeJr/status/717370629519847425

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

With credits to @digger_forum and @RogerPielkeJr

Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

http://leastthing.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/verbruggen-files-ioc-ethics-complaint.html

"Hein Verbruggen, the former head of the UCI which oversees cycling, has filed an ethics complaint against WADA and USADA. He specifically names D i c k Pound and David Howman at WADA and Travis Tygart and Bill Bock at USADA.

"WADA's most despicable action was its attempt (together with USADA) to have the Director of the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne, Professor Martial Saugay, sign a false statement that Armstrong had tested positive in the 2001 Tour of Switzerland and that Verbrugegn/UCI had attempted to hid this positive test under the table. ...

"....For me this comes very close to criminal behaviour."

OK so we know that in the World according to Verbruggen - the fact that Lance tests positive at the 1999 tour, but the UCI notify him and then allow him to google some medication with the offending drug in and then get a dodgy doctor to sign a post dated TUE and present it to the UCI means, in Hein's World, Lance never tested positive, because, honestly they thought the TUE that had not been presented at the time of test, but was now in their hands, was genuine. (Just no end to what these scallywags will think of next !)

So what have we got here ? Hein is unlikely to be filing this to the IOC unless he has got some prior notice that when he files it, it will be received and viewed seriously. Is this the precursor to asking Cookson for his legal fees again ?

Is Hein still on the IOC ? Is Pat still on the IOC ? What bit of the account did Martial say wasn't true - the bit about Hein being under a table at the time ?

https://twitter.com/RogerPielkeJr/status/717370629519847425

You know, I've just realized there's something beautiful about Hein. I mean, just look at him. He positively bathes us in the light of beauty.

What is this beautiful thing, you ask? The beautiful thing about Hein, it turns out, is that he's an idiot - i-d-i-o-t. Filing an ethics complaint against Pound, and against, especially, Tygart, might very well prove to be his undoing.

Things just got far more interesting than I might have hoped for.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

With credits to @digger_forum and @RogerPielkeJr

Hein accuses Pound and Tygart of unethical behaviour

http://leastthing.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/verbruggen-files-ioc-ethics-complaint.html

"Hein Verbruggen, the former head of the UCI which oversees cycling, has filed an ethics complaint against WADA and USADA. He specifically names D i c k Pound and David Howman at WADA and Travis Tygart and Bill Bock at USADA.

"WADA's most despicable action was its attempt (together with USADA) to have the Director of the anti-doping laboratory in Lausanne, Professor Martial Saugay, sign a false statement that Armstrong had tested positive in the 2001 Tour of Switzerland and that Verbrugegn/UCI had attempted to hid this positive test under the table. ...

"....For me this comes very close to criminal behaviour."

OK so we know that in the World according to Verbruggen - the fact that Lance tests positive at the 1999 tour, but the UCI notify him and then allow him to google some medication with the offending drug in and then get a dodgy doctor to sign a post dated TUE and present it to the UCI means, in Hein's World, Lance never tested positive, because, honestly they thought the TUE that had not been presented at the time of test, but was now in their hands, was genuine. (Just no end to what these scallywags will think of next !)

So what have we got here ? Hein is unlikely to be filing this to the IOC unless he has got some prior notice that when he files it, it will be received and viewed seriously. Is this the precursor to asking Cookson for his legal fees again ?

Is Hein still on the IOC ? Is Pat still on the IOC ? What bit of the account did Martial say wasn't true - the bit about Hein being under a table at the time ?

https://twitter.com/RogerPielkeJr/status/717370629519847425

The world according to Hein Verbruggen....

I'm not sure it's of this planet.

 

[kwikki]

Idiot? Or just suffering the same sort of self-delusion as Blatter, who after decade upon decade of lying started to actually believe his own lies.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

Idiot? Or just suffering the same sort of self-delusion as Blatter, who after decade upon decade of lying started to actually believe his own lies.

Oh no. It's real. The guy is a brilliant manipulator of facts.

He's right that the CIRC was written for the express purpose of shaming the Management Committee to revoke his lifetime appointment. Like a good liar, mixes facts and fantasy.

Good times ahead. Good times!

http://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1036153/verbruggen-complains-about-four-anti-doping-officials-to-ioc-ethics-commission

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Idiot? Or just suffering the same sort of self-delusion as Blatter , who after decade upon decade of lying started to actually believe his own lies.

The perfect time to remember this: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2015/jun/04/united-passions-the-fifa-vanity-movie-thats-never-offside

(I'd love to meet everyone in the USA who watched that film. Shouldn't be too hard, given it grossed $607.)

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Get rid of the pathetic good guys-bad guys view of the world and consider Verbruggen can be right even if he is a jerk. He is right here. Tygart and co. don't give a damn about doping. It is all about promoting themselves, their agencies, and acting as a firebreak to protect the IOC and its sports. They know doping is rampant and it cannot be stopped. There is no money, no will, and testing is ineffective. Even if a sincere effort against doping could be waged, sport would not survive exposure of the true extent of doping. They know their role is to perpetrate a charade on the public. They need their scapegoats and whipping boys to continue the scam. It does not matter that Verbruggen may be a bad guy; the point is that WADA and USADA pick their targets to further their agenda while ignoring others just as guilty.

Here is a fun fact. When DZ was hammering out his affidavit, he kept putting in that he told Steve Johnson and asked his advice. Tygart kept taking that out. Tygart did not want the public to know the truth, that doping was endemic and everyone from the top to the bottom of the sport was aware of it. He was intent on presenting a false narrative that it was a conspiracy of a few people.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re:

Tygart and co. don't give a damn about doping.

You misunderstand the role and powers of a national anti-doping organization. They have no power on their own. They are, at best, security guards, observing and reporting.

For the 1000th time, USADA executed the recommendation brilliantly. To that end, that meant constructing a story that read well. That means leaving stuff out.

Besides, it's no secret USAC was/is perfectly okay with doping. Just win.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Tygart and co. don't give a damn about doping.

You misunderstand the role and powers of a national anti-doping organization. They have no power on their own. They are, at best, security guards, observing and reporting.

For the 1000th time, USADA executed the recommendation brilliantly. To that end, that meant constructing a story that read well. That means leaving stuff out.

Besides, it's no secret USAC was/is perfectly okay with doping. Just win.

Just win = Just do it!

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Get rid of the pathetic good guys-bad guys view of the world and consider Verbruggen can be right even if he is a jerk. He is right here. Tygart and co. don't give a damn about doping. It is all about promoting themselves, their agencies, and acting as a firebreak to protect the IOC and its sports. They know doping is rampant and it cannot be stopped. There is no money, no will, and testing is ineffective. Even if a sincere effort against doping could be waged, sport would not survive exposure of the true extent of doping. They know their role is to perpetrate a charade on the public. They need their scapegoats and whipping boys to continue the scam. It does not matter that Verbruggen may be a bad guy; the point is that WADA and USADA pick their targets to further their agenda while ignoring others just as guilty.

Here is a fun fact. When DZ was hammering out his affidavit, he kept putting in that he told Steve Johnson and asked his advice. Tygart kept taking that out. Tygart did not want the public to know the truth, that doping was endemic and everyone from the top to the bottom of the sport was aware of it. He was intent on presenting a false narrative that it was a conspiracy of a few people.

I do agree that the ADAs are part of the problem. But there are or were good guys. Kimmage, Bassons, and a few others.

But yep, doping is unstoppable and the point of sport is to make money and the athletes are expendable in every possible way, even their lives.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

I do agree that the ADAs are part of the problem. But there are or were good guys. Kimmage, Bassons, and a few others.

But yep, doping is unstoppable and the point of sport is to make money and the athletes are expendable in every possible way, even their lives.

Kimmage is about the one guy in this who has integrity but he is an idealist and a zealot. He does not live in the real world. All he does is whinge about it. He is little different than the prohibitionists in 1910's America who were demanding Demon Rum be banned from the land.

Bassons is irrelevant. He is one rider was unwilling to fulfill the job requirements at the professional level, and his teammates were not happy about it in the same way any corporate employee would be unhappy if a team member was not pulling his weight. This is like a junior lawyer refusing to work more than forty hours a week because he thinks the expected hours are inhumane. He may be right but that won't buy him any sympathy from his fellow workers who rely on him to get his job done.

WADA and the national ADAs are corrupt to their core. That does not come from unethical people at the helm. It comes from the very purpose of those organizations. The purpose is unethical so unethical people naturally rise through the system, like turds floating to the surface of a sewer.

The IOC and its child sports face an intractable problem. Doping works, it is endemic, and there is no way to stop it, but the truth cannot be told to the commoners because of the financial consequences. Not just corporate sponsorship but government handouts are required to keep those sports afloat. Acknowledgement of doping's true extent would lead to the defunding of most Olympic sports. It is an impossible situation.

WADA is the solution the IOC dreamed up to sweep the problem under the rug. It is a bamboozle on the public. A gold medal was not ripped from the neck of a fifteen-year-old gymnast for taking a cold medication so the IOC could strike a blow against doping. It was done purely for PR purposes. It is done no concern for those destroyed by the system. The IOC's solution created an ecosystem built around lying. People get upset by athletes telling lies about their doping, but that is the system. It is required. It is designed that way.

Men like Tygart and Pound are not stupid. They are well aware their job is public relations effort rather than a anti-doping one. They get compensated extremely well for doing it. Just like Armstrong's did, Tygart's job relies on him lying to the public. He is no different than McQuaid, Verbruggen, or His Excellency, Antonio Samaranch.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

I do agree that the ADAs are part of the problem. But there are or were good guys. Kimmage, Bassons, and a few others.

But yep, doping is unstoppable and the point of sport is to make money and the athletes are expendable in every possible way, even their lives.

Kimmage is about the one guy in this who has integrity but he is an idealist and a zealot. He does not live in the real world. All he does is whinge about it. He is little different than the prohibitionists in 1910's America who were demanding Demon Rum be banned from the land.

Bassons is irrelevant. He is one rider was unwilling to fulfill the job requirements at the professional level, and his teammates were not happy about it in the same way any corporate employee would be unhappy if a team member was not pulling his weight. This is like a junior lawyer refusing to work more than forty hours a week because he thinks the expected hours are inhumane. He may be right but that won't buy him any sympathy from his fellow workers who rely on him to get his job done.

Kimmage is naive and lacking in critical thinking skills. He is not able to see the whole picture. If he were able to, he would see that doping is only symptomatic of the problem rather than the problem itself. As long as we - and by we, I mean both us and Kimmage - focus our fury on doping and doping riders, we are actually serving the purposes of those who are the real problem because we keep the focus off them.

In a certain way Bassons is not irrelevant. As the martyr he serves as the exception to what we are led to believe is the rule: all the doping riders and the inevitability of doping. As for him personally, I don't know enough to say, but I'm guessing his situation is more complicated than we know.

WADA and the national ADAs are corrupt to their core. That does not come from unethical people at the helm. It comes from the very purpose of those organizations. The purpose is unethical so unethical people naturally rise through the system, like turds floating to the surface of a sewer.

The IOC and its child sports face an intractable problem. Doping works, it is endemic, and there is no way to stop it, but the truth cannot be told to the commoners because of the financial consequences. Not just corporate sponsorship but government handouts are required to keep those sports afloat. Acknowledgement of doping's true extent would lead to the defunding of most Olympic sports. It is an impossible situation.

WADA is the solution the IOC dreamed up to sweep the problem under the rug. It is a bamboozle on the public. A gold medal was not ripped from the neck of a fifteen-year-old gymnast for taking a cold medication so the IOC could strike a blow against doping. It was done purely for PR purposes. It is done no concern for those destroyed by the system. The IOC's solution created an ecosystem built around lying. People get upset by athletes telling lies about their doping, but that is the system. It is required. It is designed that way.

Men like Tygart and Pound are not stupid. They are well aware their job is public relations effort rather than a anti-doping one. They get compensated extremely well for doing it. Just like Armstrong's did, Tygart's job relies on him lying to the public. He is no different than McQuaid, Verbruggen, or His Excellency, Antonio Samaranch.

I agree with everything you said here except for the bold bit. The bold bit is what they would have us believe. For years this viewpoint was implicit in remarks Armstrong made in interviews. He may well have believed it, but it's wrong. The French have shown, if only briefly, that doping can be severely minimized and restricted, if not eliminated altogether.

The first thing is to get a handle on the situation, and to admit that grand tours themselves lead to doping. Put people in charge who are determined to change grand tour racing, determined to test for drugs and motors, and hold team managers and owners accountable, not just the riders.

Yes, it can be done. But it certainly won't be done if we all say, Oh, well, it's all corrupt and doping is inevitable.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Kimmage is naive and lacking in critical thinking skills. He is not able to see the whole picture. If he were able to, he would see that doping is only symptomatic of the problem rather than the problem itself.

that's a bit harsh on kimmage.
i don't think he lacks critical thinking skills.
but assuming he does, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the guild.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

Kimmage is naive and lacking in critical thinking skills. He is not able to see the whole picture. If he were able to, he would see that doping is only symptomatic of the problem rather than the problem itself.

that's a bit harsh on kimmage.
i haven't seen any evidence that he lacks critical thinking skills.
but assuming he does, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the guild.

The evidence that he lacks critical thinking skills is that he aims his focus and fury in the wrong direction and ignores the context.

As for the rest of the guild, they are hopeless. Walsh is a prostitute and the rest of them write PR copy.

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

I agree with everything you said here except for the bold bit. The bold bit is what they would have us believe. For years this viewpoint was implicit in remarks Armstrong made in interviews. He may well have believed it, but it's wrong. The French have shown, if only briefly, that doping can be severely minimized and restricted, if not eliminated altogether.

The first thing is to get a handle on the situation, and to admit that grand tours themselves lead to doping. Put people in charge who are determined to change grand tour racing, determined to test for drugs and motors, and hold team managers and owners accountable, not just the riders.

Yes, it can be done. But it certainly won't be done if we all say, Oh, well, it's all corrupt and doping is inevitable.

Not all problems can be solved. I used to think that anti-doping independence and a sincere testing effort could work. After discussing the nitty-gritty details with Floyd, I don't think any sort of testing program can work, even if the authorities were not corrupt. The amount of doping required to make a significant difference is much much smaller than people here think.

The grand tours do not lead to doping. People dope for one hour crits. Recreational riders dope so they can take longer pulls during their weekly group ride.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The evidence that he lacks critical thinking skills is that he aims his focus and fury in the wrong direction and ignores the context.

i see what you mean and agree to a good extent, but i still think that's doing him short.
did you read his piece on agassi the other day? it was darn good.
i don't think there was much fury in that piece.
and even if he's aware that the problem is much broader, i don't think his job description allows him to take a much broader perspective.
but i get your drift and at large you are right.

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

...
The evidence that he lacks critical thinking skills is that he aims his focus and fury in the wrong direction and ignores the context.

i see what you mean and agree to a good extent, but i still think that's doing him short.
did you read his piece on agassi the other day? it was darn good.
i don't think there was much fury in that piece.
and even if he's aware that the problem is much broader, i don't think his job description allows him to take a much broader perspective.
but i get your drift and at large you are right.

Thanks. I didn't read it. Is it online?

 

[Maxiton]

Re: Re:

I agree with everything you said here except for the bold bit. The bold bit is what they would have us believe. For years this viewpoint was implicit in remarks Armstrong made in interviews. He may well have believed it, but it's wrong. The French have shown, if only briefly, that doping can be severely minimized and restricted, if not eliminated altogether.

The first thing is to get a handle on the situation, and to admit that grand tours themselves lead to doping. Put people in charge who are determined to change grand tour racing, determined to test for drugs and motors, and hold team managers and owners accountable, not just the riders.

Yes, it can be done. But it certainly won't be done if we all say, Oh, well, it's all corrupt and doping is inevitable.

Not all problems can be solved. I used to think that anti-doping independence and a sincere testing effort could work. After discussing the nitty-gritty details with Floyd, I don't think any sort of testing program can work, even if the authorities were not corrupt. The amount of doping required to make a significant difference is much much smaller than people here think.

The grand tours do not lead to doping. People dope for one hour crits. Recreational riders dope so they can take longer pulls during their weekly group ride.

We don't need to solve all problems, just a couple of problems. We don't even need to end all doping, frankly, just much of it, or the most egregious.

Have you been following the "dirtiest cheater" thread? Start here and chime in, why don'tcha?