Michael Rogers positive for clenbuterol

[Master50]

CB in the water? Everyone is positive. I like it. verify all people are dopers and the clinic will collapse!

 

[Franklin]

You do understand that imported meat is inspected, right?

You do understand that not every piece of meat is being inspected right? To drive this one down with my sledgehammer: The amount of meat and the amount of tests are on a sgnificantly different scale than cycling, which is already inadequate. And realize that as cost is a huge issue here there are limits on the test.

So what is done? Sample testing of big shipments. yes, shocking ain't it? Not every carcass is getting sampled, sent to Lausanne for an A test and then B tested.

Thanks for that heads up. I’ll be sure to advise all my friends to cut down on the horsemeat in their diet.

Some people do eat it in Europe, but my understanding is that it is mostly the older generation, not cyclists. And I think if a cyclist actually ordered horse meat in a restaurant, he would remember that if a positive suddenly emerged.

Now don't be shocked... but obviously everyone here missed a massive 2013 scandal that hit the best European contries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_meat_adulteration_scandal

"Amusing" fact, in the samples they did not just find horsemeat, but also pig meat. And that has been going on for years.

So excuse me if I point to my forehead when people like dirtyworks starting foaming at the mouth about how well the European food control is. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence.

What athlete eats canned meat in anywhere near the quantities he would eat fresh meat?

Composite food is not just canned meart. It's also packaged soup and pizza's etc. And don't say with a straightface tha athletes don't eat pizza

Like doping race horses? Some scandal.

Clenbuterol infected Canadian horsemeat has hit the EC. Handwave as much as you want. The facts are there, I feel no further need to point them out. Amusing that as soon as I point out a verifiable fact people reject them out of hand.

Again, I think you’re talking about horse meat. If beef was blocked, it’s because standards for some growth substances are different in the U.S., but not CB. And the fact that the meat was blocked undercuts your argument that Euro meat is contaminated. Same with the horse meat.

1. The Beef scanadal which you completely missed. Notice the amounts of meat involved....
2. You are telling here, in the clinic, that by ctaching one sipment that made it to the market the EC has blocked the whole influx of bad meat? I'm not sure how to react on this insane statement. Especially when I pointed out the enormous scandal this year that had been going on for years (huzzah for meat relabeling). Yet somehow the EC has airtight control.

If they catch one shipment you should wonder "but how many got through?". Considering the haphazard testing and the relabeling going on at the fringes of Europe (and then sent into the heartlands!)it's hardly reassuring.

If your point is that there are lots of synthetic substances potentially dangerous to health in the American and Euro food supply, as well as in air and water, you won't get an argument from me. (See my point about DEHP, below). But there is no evidence that there is a significant risk of testing positive for CB.

Aha... but did I say there was a significant risk? Read my posts a few times, it might help a bit. I never said it was a big risk. I said it's plausible.

Dirtyworks then came with the ludicrous "EC meat is safe, the controls are fantastic. No way that this could happen." I'll stop smashing this as I made my point with cold hard facts. I'll just add that a stance like that is hilarious in the clinic where we have a very well supported distrust of tests.

A couple of years ago, in the wake of the Contador decision, WADA considered instituting a threshold for CB, and decided not to. Why not? Because, as I noted, there is no level so low that it can't indicate doping, nor any level so high it can't indicate contamination. In fact, I don't think any study exists that challenges the assertion that there is no correlation between level of CB in the body and the origin of the drug. IOW, there might not be any level at which you would get significant separation between those who doped and those who ate contaminated meat.

Then there is a huge issue. Atheletes can not protect themselves against the Food-Maffia.

The one thing that could be a game-changer is evidence that everyone has low levels of CB in their body. We already know this is the case for some other synthetic substances, e.g., DEHP, the plasticizer that Contador allegedly tested positive for. Studies of thousands of individuals have shown that everyone has some residues of this in the urine. Apparently we all take it in chronically--in water bottles, shrink wrap, etc.--and maintain a plateau level in our bodies. As the world population grows, and pollution increases, it's possible that we could all become chronically dosed with CB as well. Some studies, which I linked during the Contador case, suggest that CB may be found in some rivers.

I had a check in the hospital for a study project. You are more or less underexaggerating here

If this were the case, then CB would have to become a threshold substance, and very careful studies would have to be carried out to determine levels significantly above ambient amounts. There would still be the problem of false negatives, but arguments based on them would lose their force.

And there we have the stance of among other Bigboat and me.

Foodcontamination is a big issue and we can't handwave it with "a few innocents will fall, but we get the crooks".

And a parting shot: Horse steaks are much nicer than beef steaks

 

[hrotha]

To further the analogy with cycling: even if chances are you will not be tested, it's only rational to avoid being tested during your glowtime as best as you can. Every doping program accounts for that, and in the meat industry you already know when you're going to be tested (rare "OOT" inspections aside).

 

[Benotti69]

I know man, how dare I root for proper justice. Indeed I should just go with you and go for every punishment I can get even if he didn't do it. It's just so gratifying even if it's not real justice. Of course if it would happen to you or a loved one it would be so different and an evil oppresive government, but hey, it's just cyclists, so they should have no protection from abusive legislation whatsoever.

Proper justice in a sport that is corrupt from the top down? How does that work?

Me and my sherry at kleast have a strong moral compass. Seems I have less bile in my stomach deciding where I stand

No bile in my stomach. Thinking Rogers should get off, when it looks highly unlikely to be contamination as only he tested positive for Clen in Japan.

At 'Kleast' i call a spade a spade.

PS, the moral compass in cycling never existed with a few exceptions, who showed their compass in their lives after the sport, LeMond calling out dopers and Bartali's courageous work during WWII spring to mind.

 

[DirtyWorks]

You do understand that not every piece of meat is being inspected right? To drive this one down with my sledgehammer: The amount of meat and the amount of tests are on a sgnificantly different scale..

Again, you don't know what you are talking about. The field of statistics in public health is very well developed and long ago came to the conclusion testing everything is not useful.

What is imported to the EU ships to EU standards. Does it *always* every time? No. In fact, that research you posted from Macedonia identified Macedonian producers of a food poisoning outbreak in 2006(?) in Spain.

WADA has NO warning about eating meat in the EU like Mexico or China for a good reason. It's one of the safest supplies in the world. There is no stream of clen positives with athletes living in the EU. That simple observation alone strongly suggests the meat supply is safe.

Either Rogers was using or a number of other athletes from the same race would have turned positive for clen too. The end.

Ignored.

 

[Morbius]

Either Rogers was using or a number of other athletes from the same race would have turned positive for clen too. The end.

"a number" specifically meaning between zero and two, as according to Benotti there are normally three people tested

 

[thehog]

"a number" specifically meaning between zero and two, as according to Benotti there are normally three people tested

That is incorrect.

42 were tested in China on one day alone. Albeit blood testing.

The podium is tested along with 1 to 50 randoms.

The number could be 53 on urine testing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

That is incorrect.

42 were tested in China on one day alone. Albeit blood testing.

The podium is tested along with 1 to 50 randoms.

The number could be 53 on urine testing.

To the bolded, now, we get into the Kremlinology aspects of the UCI and their irregular treatment of positives.

If the UCI statements are true that they "always" test for clenbuterol, then some large number of athletes from those would have been positive because there is no natural occuring clenbuterol in the body.

Even if the UCI's claims were half-true, we'd still have many more positives.

If the UCI's claim is mostly false, they would STILL have other positives.

We know the UCI tried hiding a clenbuterol positive before, but it makes no sense they would hide all but one. A mass positive would be the best PR possible for anti-doping and the UCI would ask for leniency and some riders off-season would be a little longer. The UCI could then proudly display the effectiveness of anti-doping and, yes, the cleanest peloton ever. But, we didn't get any of that.

 

[Morbius]

42 were tested in China on one day alone.

Rogers was busted in Japan

 

[thehog]

To the bolded, now, we get into the Kremlinology aspects of the UCI and their irregular treatment of positives.

If the UCI statements are true that they "always" test for clenbuterol, then some large number of athletes from those would have been positive because there is no natural occuring clenbuterol in the body.

Even if the UCI's claims were half-true, we'd still have many more positives.

If the UCI's claim is mostly false, they would STILL have other positives.

We know the UCI tried hiding a clenbuterol positive before, but it makes no sense they would hide all but one. A mass positive would be the best PR possible for anti-doping and the UCI would ask for leniency and some riders off-season would be a little longer. The UCI could then proudly display the effectiveness of anti-doping and, yes, the cleanest peloton ever. But, we didn't get any of that.

I would add the biggest criticism of the Asia races historically has been their lacklustre drug testing.

I believe politically they want to be seen as "tough on cheats" to show the UCI, IOC etc. that they will test. As the money comes from GCP/UCI they want to demonstrate they're up to the task to keep the race.

The Tour of Britain this year lost its ranking for its failure on blood testing. They were not serious enough about drug testing and paid the price.

That's said for the sheer number of samples collected there is a lot of ducking and weaving.

I don't doubt that Clen is tested on all samples. Just means there's less urine to test for EPO to get a clear result

The biggest misconception of dope testing is they test for all substances all of he time. It's simply not possible to do so.

With Clen I believe they first up use a ultra-violet light to screen for the existence of a foreign substance and then apply the proper test so as not to waste all of the sample. (So I'm told).

So "screen" would be the right word to use. Not "test". To my understanding.

 

[Morbius]

The Tour of Britain this year lost its ranking for its failure on blood testing.

What ranking has it lost?
If you are talking about the proposed calender from 2016 or whenever then it lost out because it is happening at the same time as the Vuelta, and the proposed rules say that two top level races cannot happen at the same time.

 

[thehog]

What ranking has it lost?
If you are talking about the proposed calender from 2016 or whenever then it lost out because it is happening at the same time as the Vuelta, and the proposed rules say that two top level races cannot happen at the same time.

Slight correction.

It's was knocked back per the request for upgraded status.

It's still a BS race with next to no drug testing.

Responding to the publication of the UCI’s calendar for 2014, the race director of the Tour of Britain has complained to the UCI over the maintaining of the current 2.1 status for the event.

The race has been pushing hard to be upgraded but after ten editions at the 2.1 level, it is still waiting to be elevated.

In contrast, race director Mick Bennett has pointed out that the Tour of Norway has moved from 2.1 to 2.HC. Three editions of that have been held thus far.

Bennett claims that a request was lodged to the UCI, but that this was unsuccessful. “An upgrade to the 2.HC level had once again been requested by SweetSpot [the race organisers] from the UCI via British Cycling for next year's edition, which will take place from the 7th to 14th September.

“However organisers were disappointed to learn, via the publication of the 2014 UCI Europe Tour calendar, that the application had been unsuccessful with no explanation provided by the UCI.”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...-2HC-upgrade-not-permitted.aspx#ixzz2ohJYua65

 

[thehog]

Rogers was busted in Japan

Read up in the drug testing protocols rather than waste my time. And read what I write as well.

 

[Netserk]

Read up in the drug testing protocols rather than waste my time. And read what I write as well.

I think your T-Kraft is stronger when you play nice

 

[thehog]

I think your T-Kraft is stronger when you play nice

I try. I really do

 

[Morbius]

You said podium plus 1-52 riders, which makes 4 to 53, though we don't know how many. The number tested at the WT event in China is irrelevant to the Japan Cup.

How many riders were actually tested, and the level, will be key pieces information that will influence the levels of sympathy he gets If only a handful of people were tested and the levels are similar to Contador, more people will believe the possibility of contamination, though others will see it as Karma

Either way he gets two years unless he can prove something extraordinary.

 

[thehog]

You said podium plus 1-52 riders, which makes 4 to 53, though we don't know how many. The number tested at the WT event in China is irrelevant to the Japan Cup.

How many riders were actually tested, and the level, will be key pieces information that will influence the levels of sympathy he gets If only a handful of people were tested and the levels are similar to Contador, more people will believe the possibility of contamination, though others will see it as Karma

Either way he gets two years unless he can prove something extraordinary.

The numbers tested in China and the results are not irreverent would form part of an appeal by WADA/UCI to CAS if CA exonerate Rogers.

Rogers can also ask for the results of previous tests in China if he wishes to zero in on what food caused the contamination.

Alas you are right. The Clen is in his body. He now has to tell a story on how it got there.

I believe the Frank Shleck case is more closely aligned than the Contador one.

But at 142km my feelings is that Rogers doped on the rumour they were not testing for Clen. Perfect Clen distance. One half an hour before the start and another mid race. Kaboom!

 

[manafana]

some of the stuff in here is mental, the hair sample route seems be one he will have to take if he wants try clear his name thats for sure.

 

[thehog]

some of the stuff in here is mental, the hair sample route seems be one he will have to take if he wants try clear his name thats for sure.

What would that prove? What argument would he associate with a hair test conducted of his own volition?

 

[thehog]

From Velonation:

“The Tour of Beijing organisers, the UCI, the local authorities and the teams have been discussing the issue of food safety since the first edition of the race in 2011,” UCI spokesman Louis Chenaille told VeloNation in response to questions on the matter.

“Measures put in place as a result of these discussions include the employment by the organisers of a dedicated cook to supervise food in all the hotels which house the riders during the race.”

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...ynes-Clenbuterol-positives.aspx#ixzz2oiL0laVS

 

[Dazed and Confused]

From Velonation:




http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...ynes-Clenbuterol-positives.aspx#ixzz2oiL0laVS

What we need here is a swift and decisive anti dope case to get the bar somewhat higher than today.

The Contador, Schleck, USADA, and recent Farrari cases (Pozatto and Scarponi) have made the system way too soft.

I still see 2 year ban for Rogers, hopefully within 3 months.

 

[the sceptic]

ban him ASAP so Horner can get a team.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

ban him ASAP so Horner can get a team.

so lets see we manage to remove one fuccer and another.....

Personally I think Horner should spend more time with Leipheimer developing Gran Fondos in North America.

They could even invite Armstrong, Hincapie, VdV, DZ etc.

 

[Benotti69]

so lets see we manage to remove one fuccer and another.....

Personally I think Horner should spend more time with Leipheimer developing Gran Fondos in North America.

They could even invite Armstrong, Hincapie, VdV, DZ etc.

yeah along the san antonio fault line.................

 

[Dazed and Confused]

yeah along the san antonio fault line.................

People gotta make a living Benotti somehow, Benotti.
Take that opportunity away and its chaos.
Remember, they are all just dopers.