Michael Rogers positive for clenbuterol

[darwin553]

either way Rogers is either a cheat or very unprofessional.

Isn't 'cheat' and 'unprofessional' in the same category in that it wasn't all that professional of him to get caught?

 

[Justinr]

Any bodybuilding discussion will talk about how they alternate between periods of eating and training big, to bulk up, and then doing 2 weeks or so on the clen for what they call 'cutting' - taking out the fat.

http://forum.simplyshredded.com/topic/2875/page/1/clenbuterol-cycle/
You will also read of clen being cited as beneficial to asthma sufferers - as Hog kindly reminded me, it opens the airways.

A bit like Salbutamol but better. I don't believe TUE is available for Clen unlike Sal - amazing how many asthmatics were in the peloton a few years back...

 

[proffate]

The internet is your friend. Try "clenbuterol bodybuilding" in the google.

that tends to turn up gems like

i just finnished boxing for an hour an 40 mins after talking to u earlier i took my first dose 40 and it gave me a slight energy boost(who no's if was the clen ) felt a little hotter but trained a little better than normal... ill stay on 40 for 2 days then 60for 3 then 80 for 4 then 100 for 5 i dont usually get any side mabey feel a little warm at training, or if i have it to late might find it hard to get to sleep

If anecdotes like this are where you get your information, I'd still classify the overall effects of clen as "unclear".

 

[proffate]

Deleterious effects of chronic clenbuterol treatment on endurance and sprint exercise performance in rats. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10677393

maybe this explains Contador's recent decline...

 

[DirtyWorks]

If anecdotes like this are where you get your information, I'd still classify the overall effects of clen as "unclear".

And yet, here's one using the same search criteria: http://www.elitefitness.com/steroid_profiles/Clenbuterol.html


Does your criticism mean you are unable to work the googles? Can't imagine a search string? My higher-powered gift to you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=clenbuterol+athletes+effects

I'm looking forward to a summary of your findings.

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

that tends to turn up gems like



If anecdotes like this are where you get your information, I'd still classify the overall effects of clen as "unclear".

There is full info out there, just try a little harder. Crystal clear as to how it is used and why, in BB/ weightloss circles.

 

[proffate]

And yet, here's one using the same search criteria: http://www.elitefitness.com/steroid_profiles/Clenbuterol.html

Does that look reliable or scientific to you?

 

[hrotha]

Does that look reliable or scientific to you?

Scientific? No, it's not a paper. Reliable? Yes. People actually using clen as a PED know more about its effects as a PED than doctors who haven't prescribed it as a PED.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Scientific? No, it's not a paper. Reliable? Yes. People actually using clen as a PED know more about its effects as a PED than doctors who haven't prescribed it as a PED.

Agreed. And the BB forums I have read have incredibly detailed accounts of protein / carbs / fat intake, their PED regime, workout routines and weight changes / general feeling of heatlh, etc. That was for AICAR. It was an eye opening read.

If you've only ever lived in a lab, it's going to be hard to understand, but real life ain't always quite like the lab.

 

[thehog]

Agreed. And the BB forums I have read have incredibly detailed accounts of protein / carbs / fat intake, their PED regime, workout routines and weight changes / general feeling of heatlh, etc. That was for AICAR. It was an eye opening read.

If you've only ever lived in a lab, it's going to be hard to understand, but real life ain't always quite like the lab.

Agreed. If want to know about PEDs, bodybuilders know more than any scientist.

Guys who are willing to shrink their balls to the point of castration on drugs designed for horses are your best source. Not a lab tech who only test drugs safe for mice & humans.

 

[Merckx index]

Agreed. If want to know about PEDs, bodybuilders know more than any scientist.

Guys who are willing to shrink their balls to the point of castration on drugs designed for horses are your best source. Not a lab tech who only test drugs safe for mice & humans.

On the Daily Peloton forum a few years back, there was a body builder, whose screen name was Golden Ear, who was a treasure trove of info when he opened up about his experience. Of course, he thought all this stuff should be legal and permitted, and pooh-poohed any suggestion of adverse effects on health.

 

[BroDeal]

Agreed. And the BB forums I have read have incredibly detailed accounts of protein / carbs / fat intake, their PED regime, workout routines and weight changes / general feeling of heatlh, etc. That was for AICAR. It was an eye opening read.

If you've only ever lived in a lab, it's going to be hard to understand, but real life ain't always quite like the lab.

You also have to take into account that these guys are taking multiple drugs at the same time, some of them only to counteract the effects of other drugs. Legitmate research will not delve into the effects of juggling a half dozen different drugs then using another half dozen for post cycle therapy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The cycling was interesting too. We all know PEDs exist and most know the effects they have, but when you stop taking them, really weird things can happen, and that's not in the literature, nor in the press.

But you can read about it all on those BB forums.

 

[the sceptic]

I wish someone like that posted here.

 

[blackcat]

On the Daily Peloton forum a few years back, there was a body builder, whose screen name was Golden Ear, who was a treasure trove of info when he opened up about his experience. Of course, he thought all this stuff should be legal and permitted, and pooh-poohed any suggestion of adverse effects on health.

Merckx, it was speculated Big Boat is Golden Gear.

Brodeal, what was your opinion on that?

Man I miss the DP forums from about half a dozen years back. I got banned about 3 or 4 times, Chris H hated me, House was funny to provoke, he would run off and find his pacifier, then there was Steve in Hotlanta. not to forget Hombre or Bobke, think he went by Hombre on DP,

Wish could have them back now with reasoned decision, and see them justify their craven antics

 

[thehog]

I wish someone like that posted here.

Big Boat?



10ch

 

[blackcat]

Big Boat
has the same rhthym as a handle to
Golden Gear,

Apart from the first handle,
Arbiter,
Ban Pro Cycling
had his own haiku with three words and then changing syllables. There was a pattern to his avatars. Obviously, his posting was THE tell. But a reverse engineering looking at all the monickers, there was a definite trend.

ofcourse, this could be all confirmation bias. but I reckon BroDeal will be with me here.

We really need Mrs John Murphy back with some Frodos and telling his countrymen the straight dope on GB Cycling

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Agreed. If want to know about PEDs, bodybuilders know more than any scientist.

Guys who are willing to shrink their balls to the point of castration on drugs designed for horses are your best source. Not a lab tech who only test drugs safe for mice & humans.

Lol great post.

 

[proffate]

There are also forums full of nutjobs who will swear up and down the wonders of homeopathic medicine. If you're taking anecdata as fact that's a slap in the face of sport science, and you're pretty much forfeiting all credibility. There are lots of tidbits of "common knowledge" that science has proven to be fallacious, e.g. that coffee acts as a diuretic, that sugar makes kids hyper, etc.

You're right that legit scientists will probably never conduct a controlled, double-blind study of a few dozen elite cyclists to sort out the exact short and long term effects of clen at various dosages and in concert with other methods and substances, but to therefore trust any knuckle-dragging monkey with an internet connection and a keyboard is ludicrous; instead, I can only conclude that it's possible Rogers intentionally took it for perceived short term gains.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

There are also forums full of nutjobs who will swear up and down the wonders of homeopathic medicine. If you're taking anecdata as fact that's a slap in the face of sport science, and you're pretty much forfeiting all credibility. There are lots of tidbits of "common knowledge" that science has proven to be fallacious, e.g. that coffee acts as a diuretic, that sugar makes kids hyper, etc.

Way to miss the point. We're not talking about people who are being cured of something using placebo powered homeopathetic remedies.

If you had have said, "I have read the forums you are talking about and ..." you'd be far more believable.

As it is, I offer a classic counter example to your denigration of the information present in the BB forums discussed above.

proffate, please meet Ed Coyle. Renowned sports scientist, PhD supervisor to the legendary Andrew Coggan and author of an efficieny study based on Lance Armstrong.

Personally, I like the BB forum credibility more.

 

[hrotha]

but to therefore trust any knuckle-dragging monkey with an internet connection and a keyboard

You don't. You trust the consensus.

 

[happychappy]

DP forums

Drugs and Porn?

 

[blackcat]

Drugs and Porn?

basically yeah brah.

daily peloton forums

you have not felt psychological pain like a double penetration from House and Chris h

 

[Franklin]

Franklin, I think you make some good points, but you are conflating contamination of the food supply—a point, which to repeat a second time, I don’t disagree with—with a significant risk of testing positive for CB. The two do not necessarily go hand and hand, and none of the links you have provided indicate that the one results in the other.

Read FFS instead of erecting a frigging strawman.

No where, at no place do I claim that.

However, Clenbuterol contamination is plausible even in Europe. Plausible does not mean that it will happen a lot. But it's certainly far from impossible.

And the links I posted flat-out proof that:

1. There is clenbuterol in Europeans meat, blowing away the absurd statement there's none.
2. The quality of meat control in Europe is hardly bulletproof, even when people were claiming that European meat control is so good that nothing of the sort could happen.

Anyone denying this (and there were people doing just that^^) is being shown the cold hard facts.

Now onto Contador:

1. The amount of Clen was truly minute. Considering it's usage that's odd (especially with the body adjusting to it and needing ever higher dosage).
2. The amount of Clen is very in line with contamination. This was known back then and has been shown in later scandals.
3. Meat is contaminated with Clen (see above evidence) and it only takes one cow or bull with a large dose to get someone positive.
4. "Tracing of meat" has been shown to be a cess-pit which dwarves Pro-Cyclings problems.

Above was why they couldn't accuse AC of willingly and knowingly taking Clen and had to use a cop out:

"We do not know how it got there, but it is there. You could not proof yourself innocent, so the ban stands".

Innocent until proven guilty... yet this time exactly the other way around. Now there's a very good reason why we have the former and not the latter, so why this does not count for athletes is a disgrace.

Do I believe he didn't dope? I think it's plausible he didn't use Clen, yet I'm also convinced he is a blooddoper from his amateur time. But you should not abuse a trumped-up charge to get "justice'. It takes away basic tenets of our justice system.

And onto Mick Rogers.... WTF are you guys on about. Mr. Teflon suddenly forgets basic dope cycle hygiene and starts using Clen for a race in Japan? Especialy since everyone knows that it's very easily found and has no minimum treshold.

I'd say don't count your chickens before they hatch and just wait how this will unfold. All we have is a lot of speculation.

 

[Franklin]

Fact: Rogers was tested positive for clenbuterol.

You do appear to have trouble with this.

I agree it's not always black and white. The fact that contamination can occur from eating meat containing clenbuterol is obviously a problem with regards to doping testing. However this doesn't mean that because contamination is possible that it is the reason for Rogers' positive. It also doesn't mean it isn't, thus the complexity of the debate. There is also very little chance that we will ever find the truth about the source of the clenbuterol that was in Rogers' body, so any debate is destined to remain theoretical.

To the boldened part, Excuse me???? Where do I deny he tested positve? How insane is that? Of course he tested positive, otherwise this thread would not exist.

Perhaps you intend to say I deny the possibility he willingly took it: Where do I say it's certainly contamination? Why yet another strawman???

What I do say is that I find it unlikely that people like AC and MR who weathered more serious scandals as these and who are veterans in this shady game all of a sudden decide to use a drug which is easily detected. Even stranger, they are the only high-profile cyclistsever found with it, which seems that it's a high detection drug of which the competition finds it's not worth it.

So again: It's plausible that MR (who I am convinced is a long time doper) in this case is indeed innocent of said charges. I do not know, but this is one of those cases where I wait and see instead of pronouncing guilt of the athlete.

According to the rules though, athletes are responsible for what they ingest, whether you find this fair or not.

Sorry, but that's clearly nonsense. Contaminated meat as has been shown in other cases certainly can get you off.

Do not claim that there are rules that are not there. Stick with the facts.