Midfoot cleat positioning.

[durianrider]

I couldnt find a thread on it, so lets start one up and some crew can tell me its ******** and then I can convince you's why you should ride em.

I got em custom made by Sabre Boots in Sydney. They look like I rolled MJackson but they are the best shoes Ive ever had. Super stiff n light. No more hot feet on 400km training rides.

Steve Hogg fitted me up and have been working with him for the last 6 years and rate him very highly. Never had such comfort on the bike.

Anyone else ride em? I only know of one other racer riding them in oz and thats Peter Milostic. I see a few Milram riders already have em.

Im putting out a few % extra watts, its not much extra, but I seem to be able to hold it longer according to the powertap. Definitely more aero on the bike(much lower seat height) and the feet dont get as achy during long rides on hot summer days.

 

[online-rider]

Are you saying the cleats are half way down your shoe, as in from top to bottom, not side to side? If so, wouldn't that Fu'ck your back?, or your knees?

 

[ergmonkey]

Wow, I wouldn't dare debate a technical aspect of cycling with someone who has ridden such impressive distances. I guess I better sit this one out.

 

[mountaindew]

I'd like to try but are they good for anything but tt'ing?

 

[Hairy Wheels]

There was an Austrian rider who gained some attention from his results and his attribution of them to his mid-cleat position. Then he was busted for EPO...it seems if you want big power increases you should probably just go with the EPO...

 

[ihavenolimbs]

I 2nd midfoot(ish)

I couldnt find a thread on it, so lets start one up and some crew can tell me its ******** and then I can convince you's why you should ride em.

I tried "true" midfoot positioning for several months, as espoused by Gotz Heine. No increase in power, but produced that power at a lower heart-rate (~10 bpm less). I also noticed that I could ride out-of-the-saddle for much longer, foot comfort increased, and no more calf-cramps on long, steep, low-cadence climbs.

I've eventually settled on having the cleats 5 mm forward from the true midfoot position, and I'm using a 5 mm shorter crank. I can spin faster like this (and grind just as well too), and I'm making slightly more LT power (and an even greater increase in anaerobic power).

It was kinda scary drilling holes in my Specialized S-Works road shoes though, expensive if I messed it up, $500NZ RRP! (But I did experiment with cheap Taiwanese shoes first.)


From reading about peoples' experiences with midfoot cleats, it seems to be mostly taller riders, or riders with longer feet, that have seemed to benefit most. I think this has to do with cranklength and cleat position being related. If your cranks are too short, or you regularly get calf-cramps, you'll probably benefit more from moving your cleats back.

 

[Notso Swift]

Steve Hogg fitted me up and have been working with him for the last 6 years and rate him very highly. Never had such comfort on the bike.

I am surprised it took him so long to convince you, he is pretty adamant about them

 

[53 x 11]

Wow, I wouldn't dare debate a technical aspect of cycling with someone who has ridden such impressive distances. I guess I better sit this one out.

Distance is meaningless without speed.

 

[durianrider]

Steve Hogg told me about em a few years back but I wanted to let him iron out any issues with fitting first. I didnt have to wait that long as Steve is up to date so much anyways..

I have 2 sets of xtr pedals, one for my road bike and xc bike. I find using the same shoe for both helps with faster muscular adaption to each bike.

I went out on my dually today with the road bunch. At first they didnt think I would keep up but I was dropp'n em on the climbs..not cos of my midfoot or heavy bike but cos I was the only one in the bunch currently racing A grade..

My comfort on the bike has never been better. Its insane. Im going to crack my 515km solo ride by the end of the year. Aiming for 600km on an out and back course to make it objective.

Now I know why all the pro's ride custom made shoes..Its way more comfy. Ive got a custom made shoe that is stiffer than the cookie cutter shoe off the shelf for even cheaper than most top models..

Its funny, we as consumers ride the same looking shoes as the pro's but they actually get custom shoes..

I used to be a fashion victim before I got fitted up by Steve Hogg and now I am a function victim and riding a LOT better for it.

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[durianrider]

Wow, I wouldn't dare debate a technical aspect of cycling with someone who has ridden such impressive distances. I guess I better sit this one out.

Just cos you dont ride or race at my level doesnt mean you cant share your experiences. I never said that. Feel free to chime in mate.

 

[durianrider]

There was an Austrian rider who gained some attention from his results and his attribution of them to his mid-cleat position. Then he was busted for EPO...it seems if you want big power increases you should probably just go with the EPO...

My hematocrit was 49 in April and my hemoglobin was 157. If I took EPO, Id really be at risk of heart failure.

 

[durianrider]

So the weather is starting to warm up again here in Australia and I did 170km yesterday and 210km a few days before that and still no real 'hot foot' sensations like I used to get.

 

[biomac]

Distance is meaningless without speed.

Before I might get banned as well ;-) a couple of questions 53X11:

- Isn't it merely the other way round in cycling, isn't speed meaningless without distance?
- Isn't it that when you have more space to apply power to a lever the lesser force you need?
- Did I miss out on something? Is it that they told me the wrong things in physics?
- Or is the experience I get when I push my pedals in midfoot position a fake?
The majority of those who do ride their shoes with cleats mounted midfoot report that they feel an increase in power straight away. Of course this is a feeling only as technically speaken it translates to: They feel they could spin a bigger gear at similar wattage for a longer time.
Don't know why 'durianrider' got banned from this forumand wouldn't want to live on durian either but what he reports is pretty much what everyone feels when riding 'midfoot' (originally I named it bio-mxc² to remind of Einstein's energy formula) .
Even Mr. Huang, Technical Editor of CyclingNews couldn't help admitting: "Though unusual, the idea behind Heine's mid-foot or 'arch' cleat positions is rather logical: he and other mid-foot proponents such as renowned coach Joe Friel and Cyclingnews fitness panelist Steve Hogg surmise that the vast majority of a rider's power is produced by the quadriceps, glutes and hamstrings while the lower leg only serves to stabilize the efforts of what happens above. As such, the lower leg is merely a conduit and doesn't produce enough effective power to justify the metabolic cost.

Moving the cleats back to the arch - a location Heine defines as optimal - thus substantially reduces the workload on the calves and leaves more oxygen and energy remaining for those larger muscle groups to produce more total power before fatigue and exhaustion can set in. In other words, you can go faster for longer with no additional training required aside from adjusting to the new position.
"You can go faster for longer with no additional training required aside from adjusting to the new position", James declares.
After a decade into bio-mxc² may I deliberately add:
- better control of the bike due to lower saddle height (25mm on normal shoes, approx. 35mm with mine)
- less problems with knees, calves, tendons and ankles
- improved aerodynamics
Of course you will gain all these benefits by drilling major shoe brands as well. Watch it though unbiased customer, as you might discover that some coincidence notoriously tries to prevent you from doing so witnessing all sorts of carvings, ventilation-holes or narrow soles of modern mass production cyclig shoes in exactly that area.
Enjoy ;-)

 

[42x16ss]

I have to say that I was a bit sceptical before trying a mid-foot cleat position myself but I find that for me it is better for TT's, longer tempo rides and climbs.

The only thing I find that suffers is sprinting/crits and punching up short sharp climbs at race pace as you aren't able to use your calf muscles to jump and accelerate. I prefer to use a traditional position with the ball of the foot over the pedal axle for this.

Not everyone is suited to a mid-foot cleat position but for the average rec rider who doesn't really race that often (or at all) I suggest you give it a go. Most good fitters should be able to tell if a mid foot position is beneficial for you.

 

[biomac]

I have to say that I was a bit sceptical before trying a mid-foot cleat position myself but I find that for me it is better for TT's, longer tempo rides and climbs.

The only thing I find that suffers is sprinting/crits and punching up short sharp climbs at race pace as you aren't able to use your calf muscles to jump and accelerate. I prefer to use a traditional position with the ball of the foot over the pedal axle for this.

Not everyone is suited to a mid-foot cleat position but for the average rec rider who doesn't really race that often (or at all) I suggest you give it a go. Most good fitters should be able to tell if a mid foot position is beneficial for you.

42X16ss,
reason for this often reported 'downside' is that most cyclist who use mid-foot cleats instinctively ride in a slightly bigger gear because of the beforementioned physical facts.
Most of them even use slightly longer cranks and oval chainrings such as BioPace or ROTOR (pos. 4) which will increase their load during downstroke once again.
Rather than shifting down why don't you just switch into a (1 cog) lighter gear, get out of the saddle, accellerate speed and then shift down? This technique overcomes the suspectedly sluggish jumping qialities any big haul will present to a cyclist in the beginning of a climb, round a corner or prior to a sprint.
As often, a little change of habits can make a big change.

 

[42x16ss]

42X16ss,
reason for this often reported 'downside' is that most cyclist who use mid-foot cleats instinctively ride in a slightly bigger gear because of the beforementioned physical facts.
Most of them even use slightly longer cranks and oval chainrings such as BioPace or ROTOR (pos. 4) which will increase their load during downstroke once again.
Rather than shifting down why don't you just switch into a (1 cog) lighter gear, get out of the saddle, accellerate speed and then shift down? This technique overcomes the suspectedly sluggish jumping qialities any big haul will present to a cyclist in the beginning of a climb, round a corner or prior to a sprint.
As often, a little change of habits can make a big change.

Will certainly give it a try, the only thing with that is reacting instantly to an ALL OUT sprint, often in 53x12 or even 11 where both reaction time and top speed are essential.

Jumping back up two or three gears at once can cost due to the shift time. In a club race this isn't anything to worry about but in an open race the hesitation/delay can cost. Apart from this I've been really happy with the change, my TT and climbing have improved quite a bit!

 

[FrankDay]

Definitely more aero on the bike(much lower seat height) and the feet dont get as achy during long rides on hot summer days

Ugh, everything else being the same, a lower seat should hurt your aerodynamics.

There are lots of reasons one might want to ride arch cleats but improved aerodynamics is not one of them.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

 

[LarryBudMelman]

My subjective evaluation is that moving the cleats back 8 mm- 1cm increased my power to a noticeable degree. That was as far back as my shoes allowed. No numbers to back it up.

FYI, I'm 175 cm tall, and wear a 45-46 shoe. 75kg, 85cm inseam, 175mm crank. Saddle height to bb,73.5 cm.

The pedal spindle used to be under the ball of the foot, Now it's very slightly behind and the pressure seems to give a nice massaging effect to my foot rather than cramping and occassional hot spot previously. More load seems to be shifted to quads rather than hamstrings calves as before..

FWIW, I told my riding buddies to move the cleats back as far as their shoes would allow, and all reported an increased perception of power and stability.

YMMV.

 

[biomac]

Ugh, everything else being the same, a lower seat should hurt your aerodynamics.

There are lots of reasons one might want to ride arch cleats but improved aerodynamics is not one of them.

Thank-you Frank for joining in and thank-you for being the first member of the bike industry who nourishes rumor that
the increasing use of arch cleats amongst cyclists could be more than a marketing hype.
Who said that its the saddle only which goes down?

 

[biomac]

My subjective evaluation is that moving the cleats back 8 mm- 1cm increased my power to a noticeable degree. That was as far back as my shoes allowed. No numbers to back it up.

FYI, I'm 175 cm tall, and wear a 45-46 shoe. 75kg, 85cm inseam, 175mm crank. Saddle height to bb,73.5 cm.

The pedal spindle used to be under the ball of the foot, Now it's very slightly behind and the pressure seems to give a nice massaging effect to my foot rather than cramping and occassional hot spot previously. More load seems to be shifted to quads rather than hamstrings calves as before..

FWIW, I told my riding buddies to move the cleats back as far as their shoes would allow, and all reported an increased perception of power and stability.

YMMV.

Again: 10 or even 15mms may enter the middle third of the bicycle shoe sole and is probably within the zone I claimed and received Paten's Grant for. However, it's got nothing to do with bio-mxc² or arch-/midfoot cleats. The merits for shifting cleats like 15mms further back go to Steve Hogg who in his attempt to sort out positional problems dared to enter 'nowhere land'. Still the calf muscles fire continuously and waste precious energy and the circumference of the pushing orbit is not even near to what the intention of midfoot cleats is about (see: http://www.biomac.biz/Tretpiktogramm ). In order to evaluate both strategies in terms of torque and efficiency the comparison of table tennis and tennis may be applied.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Again: 10 or even 15mms may enter the middle third of the bicycle shoe sole and is probably within the zone I claimed and received Paten's Grant for. However, it's got nothing to do with bio-mxc² or arch-/midfoot cleats. The merits for shifting cleats like 15mms further back go to Steve Hogg who in his attempt to sort out positional problems dared to enter 'nowhere land'. Still the calf muscles fire continuously and waste precious energy and the circumference of the pushing orbit is not even near to what the intention of midfoot cleats is about (see: http://www.biomac.biz/Tretpiktogramm ). In order to evaluate both strategies in terms of torque and efficiency the comparison of table tennis and tennis may be applied.

'

Dude! I don't read German and my translator isn't working on your page. Send me a PM so I can give you my address to get a pair of your shoes to me and I'll be happy to wear them and give you my impressions. For a about one large bill, that's $1K a month, I'll be happy to endorse the shoes even if I find they suck.

Best regards,

Larry Bud Melman

 

[biomac]

bio-mxc² vs traditional - a torque clip

Sorry mate, I'll ask my admin to add an English description soon. In the meantime I hope this should do:
The clip on http://www.biomac.biz/die-y-serie/tretpiktogramm/ shows (simplified):

1st downstroke phase (positive or pushing zone)

the blue circle represents the pedal axle's rotation around the bottom bracket as defined by the UCI
the red circle mirrors the well known circle effectuated by the traditional setup (rider uses approx. 45% of the entire revolution for pushing only)
the green circle shows the obviously longer circumference (>50%) during downstroke while using bio-mxc²

2nd lifting zone ( negative/neutral or pulling segment)

Again the blue circle represents lifting segment of the foot during the UCI-approved kinematic of the pedal axle
The red circle mirrors the well known circle (>50%) effectuated using traditional setup (rider uses more than 50% of the entire revolution for pulling only)
Wheras the green circle shows the clearly shortened (< 45%!) circumference when using the patented bio-mxc² cycling shoe sole

Now in opposite to longer cranks which would also increase the pulling zone dsproportionally bio-mxc² lengthens a rider's downstroke significantly increasing the feet's time/space within this segment of the spinning circle.
The result: longer haul, shorter neutral zone -> less peak power necessary for every single downstroke to propel cranks under heavy load, less neutral/negative segment lifting the pedal, reduced strain of tendons and joints, superior power transfer, lower saddle height with all its related benefits, less work and oxygen consumption for minor muscle groups... in brief: a (physio-) logical beauty for everyone who loves to ride a pushbike and wants to get the optimum out of his effort.

(Puh, that was a long effort but I trust intelligent and unbiased readers like you will now understand why experts from all over the world and completely independent from my small wallet but likeminded in experience insist that bio-mxc² is the intelligent way to ride a bike. While I'm just the nuts 'inventor of the evident' its them we owe a mighty hand for their perseverance and integrity, I'd say.)

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

My subjective evaluation is that moving the cleats back 8 mm- 1cm increased my power to a noticeable degree. That was as far back as my shoes allowed. No numbers to back it up.

FYI, I'm 175 cm tall, and wear a 45-46 shoe. 75kg, 85cm inseam, 175mm crank. Saddle height to bb,73.5 cm.

The pedal spindle used to be under the ball of the foot, Now it's very slightly behind and the pressure seems to give a nice massaging effect to my foot rather than cramping and occassional hot spot previously. More load seems to be shifted to quads rather than hamstrings calves as before..

FWIW, I told my riding buddies to move the cleats back as far as their shoes would allow, and all reported an increased perception of power and stability.

YMMV.

Being a bit behind ball of foot 5-8mm is pretty normal and not a bad place to be for many IMO.

The riders I've worked with that have tried mid foot and more typical closer to ball of foot cleat positions have not experienced any performance difference in aerobic endurance events (when we examine their power output I mean). They have however had to reconfigure bikes when swapping to events that a mid foot position doesn't particularly suit (e.g. points racing, crits). In the end it was more bike set up changing hassle than it was worth.

For some people, making such a change might even need a different frame. You probably need a different stem at least.

I'd need some serious data to convince me that the sustainable power to aero drag ratio is improved from such a change. On some frames you may not be able to lower bars enough to compensate for the lower saddle and end up with a worse aero outcome.

But by all means experiment. Some like the feel of it and if it feels good, often that means people will ride more and that's usually not a bad thing.

Personally I can't really do it as I'd need to build a prosthetic leg of different length, and that's expensive. Plus the changes to my bikes. It all adds up.

 

[biomac]

With all my respect Alex, but don't you feel a bit off-topic?
World-famous long-distance athlete durianrider initiated this thread informing us about the enormous benefits he got from famous Steve Hogg's bike-fit and him swapping to SABRE-boots with a position I baptised bio-mxc² and patented in 2001. Now POWERCRANK inventor Frank Day moves in questioning the fact that a substantial drop in saddle height due to feet shifted forward on the pedal ( see: http://www.biomac.biz/die-y-serie/tretpiktogramm/ ) could possibly inprove a rider's aerodynamics dramatically.
With passion I explain to a fellow with the illustrous pseudonym 'LarryBudMelman' how and why this experience translates into curves no lesser than Joe Friel connects since 2007 with "a power-to-heart-rate improvement of not less than 9%" ( see: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007_01_01_archive.html ). Since my Patent has been granted quite a number of brave athletes, amateurs and pros likewise, have already taken advantage of this fact, dominated their races and told the stunned public that there were no drugs involved but a smart alteration of their position. Now you enter the scene and raise your voice about something you admittedly haven't even tried and ask for "facts".
While I feel very sorry about the accident you had and did my best to help others in my surrounding with similar injuries to overcome their issues - don't you think its about time to take advantage of what has been achieved within a decade of industry-supported pros and cons rather than ironically question it?

Do you really want to jeopardise your good name telling the public that a smaller size frame like the ones I exposed on my site, 26" wheels and a notably longer (virtual) leverage from shoes made the way I recommend it does not interfere with a rider's performance on the bike?
Alex, while I'm at your command if you want to give this and a couple of other findings I was blessed to make an unbiased try don't feel offended when I do get terribly bored reading the same dull redundance from dim repetitors of the bike industry's propaganda again and again.