Midfoot cleat positioning.

[biomac]

With all my respect Alex,
but don't you feel your fred is a bit off-topic? World-famous long-distance athlete durianrider who got banned from this forum for reasons I don't know initiated this thread informing other forum members about the enormous benefits he got from reknowned positionist Steve Hogg's bike-fit and him chosing SABRE-boots with a position I patented and baptised bio-mxc² .
Now POWERCRANK-inventor Frank Day moved in questioning the fact that a substantial drop in saddle height due to feet shifted forward on the pedal ( see: http://www.biomac.biz/die-y-serie/tretpiktogramm/ ) could inprove a rider's aerodynamics dramatically.
With passion, I explained to a fellow with the illustrous pseudonym LarryBudMelman how and why this experience translates into curves no lesser than Joe Friel connects with "(...) my power-heart rate ratio which I tracked for years improved by 9%." ( see: http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007_01_01_archive.html ). Since the patent has been granted quite a number of brave athletes, amateurs and pros likewise, have already taken advantage of this fact, dominated their races and told a stunned audience that apart from their efforts there was nothing involved but a smart alteration in position.
Now you enter the scene and raise your voice about something you admittedly haven't even tried asking for "data". Did you ask when you coached your athletes for tts?
And:
Did any expert on this matter eccept me ever claim "the sustainable power to aero drag ratio is improved"? Apart from "Yes, no problem!" which I'd claim straight away - is this all you know to an improvement on the bike? Haven't you ever been riding on a circuit for instance and found it increasingly difficult to master the same steep hill or a cross-wind section each lap? Is all you relate words like 'oxygen consumption' to the work of vanSickle&Hull who in fact never examined perseverance with different positions but total oxygen consumption which of course does always remain constant with equal power output, no matter where you position your foot in that very moment of a short test. Never thought about the importance of where the oxygen gets consumed, at which rate let alone the amount of leftovers created??
Couldn't I make it clear when answering 53X11's "Distance is meaningless without speed" how 'short' this 'axiom' is?

While I feel very sorry about the accident you had and did my best to help others in my surrounding with similar injuries to overcome their problems - don't you think its about time to take advantage of what has been achieved in the last decade despite industry-supported cons rather than ironically question it? Do you really want to jeopardise your reputation as a trustworthy coach (I believe you are!) telling this Forums' members that a smaller size frame like the ones exposed on my site and 26" wheels together with a notably longer (virtual) lever from shoes made the way subject to discussion in this thread do not interfere with an athlete's performance on his bike or could be too much an investment when it goes to save time in a tt?
Alex, while I'm at your command if you want to give this and a couple of other findings an unbiased try don't feel offended when I do get bored reading the same dull redundance of some Industry's propaganda again and again, ok?

 

[bc_hills]

With all my respect Alex, but don't you feel your fred is a bit off-topic? <screed deleted>

All Alex did was respond to someone's post. He did so very reasonably, succinctly and informatively. You're a little over the top here Biomass.

Anway, I too ride with my cleat a little behind the ball of my foot. It's just more comfortable for me but my feet are longish. It certainly takes away from out of the saddle performance, but it feels good for the long grind.

Don't think I'd want it on a track bike though!

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Being a bit behind ball of foot 5-8mm is pretty normal and not a bad place to be for many IMO.

The riders I've worked with that have tried mid foot and more typical closer to ball of foot cleat positions have not experienced any performance difference in aerobic endurance events (when we examine their power output I mean). They have however had to reconfigure bikes when swapping to events that a mid foot position doesn't particularly suit (e.g. points racing, crits). In the end it was more bike set up changing hassle than it was worth.

For some people, making such a change might even need a different frame. You probably need a different stem at least.

I'd need some serious data to convince me that the sustainable power to aero drag ratio is improved from such a change. On some frames you may not be able to lower bars enough to compensate for the lower saddle and end up with a worse aero outcome.

But by all means experiment. Some like the feel of it and if it feels good, often that means people will ride more and that's usually not a bad thing.

Personally I can't really do it as I'd need to build a prosthetic leg of different length, and that's expensive. Plus the changes to my bikes. It all adds up.

I was riding about 200-250 miles a week at the time of the change and had been on that schedule for about 3 years. Prior to that I was riding from 100 to 150 a week for about 8 years and had been a runner previously. I don't race.

I immediately felt a more locked in sensation and became more conscious of my knees angling in toward the TT rather than pistoning straight up and down. No doubt that ideally I would have orthotics and or shims to correct over pronation. I experienced fatigue and soreness in my quads which I had not felt in quite a long time. I had a corresponding decrease in fatigue in my hamstrings and to a lesser extent, my calves.

When I changed cleat position I also lowered saddle from 74.5 to 73.5cm. I only have 3.5 cm saddle to bar drop now. I'm using an 11cm stem but don't feel a 12 is necessary. From the tip of saddle to center of bars is 55.5cm which seems to be a middle range.. I'm riding an S-Works Roubaix.

From your perspective I could see how you'd be concerned about the loss of tactile sensation and athleticism. Like many of us, I'm sure you're sensitive to small changes, but even more so. I think the spindle under ball of foot enables more manipulation of the foot and lower leg(and your whole position on the bike) which is something you probably don't want to give up.

I always thought my powerful calves, (relative to the rest of my legs) provided an advantage, but I was surprised that I didn't feel any less athletic on the bike after the change.

I'm not using Power and don't even use HR anymore. Just pretty much time and PE. I'm just a recreational guy getting PT and mental therapy.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I always thought my powerful calves, (relative to the rest of my legs) provided an advantage, but I was surprised that I didn't feel any less athletic on the bike after the change.

Well I am missing one calf yet for aerobic endurance (power for durations 4-minutes and longer), I have been able to equal or improve on my pre-amputation power. But my sprint power has suffered a lot, down ~ 250W.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

All Alex did was respond to someone's post. He did so very reasonably, succinctly and informatively. You're a little over the top here Biomass.

Anway, I too ride with my cleat a little behind the ball of my foot. It's just more comfortable for me but my feet are longish. It certainly takes away from out of the saddle performance, but it feels good for the long grind.

Don't think I'd want it on a track bike though!

biomac's native language is not English and it's my only language, so debate isn't easy. I'm pretty sure he does not mean any ill feeling, nor I towards him. We have in fact met once. I had two whole legs in those days though

He was showing me his use of the online SRM torque analysis system that day. It is certainly interesting, but of limited benefit in my opinion.

I just like to see good solid data to back up claims of performance enhancement, that's all, instead of the usual anecdotes and celebrity endorsements we typically see.

Mid foot is not new. Watch any local on a hybrid bike trundling to the shops.

 

[biomac]

Well I am missing one calf yet for aerobic endurance (power for durations 4-minutes and longer), I have been able to equal or improve on my pre-amputation power. But my sprint power has suffered a lot, down ~ 250W.

Good to see that we have you back, Alex.
It was not my intention to bully you away, so don't mind my language in case it was too hefty, ok? Its just that I hear this kind of talking every day - from those who do not try and like a cobra watch their wattmeters as if they were hypnotised. Almost everyone else is more than happy with the change and the options it offers. They wouldn't want to switch back.
What you state above though is exactly why you'd be the almost ideal example. Forget about 'power' as it is nothing but a product of force and circumference. Instead, take your dammaged calf out of the equation and at the same time increase the haul for your strained thighs and you could increase your performance notably. Ask Steve and he will show you.
By the way, there's absolutely no need to change your present prosthesis as there is other ways to work around the challenge
Give us a yell, Alex when you are ready to go through the eye of the needle.

 

[LarryBudMelman]

Well I am missing one calf yet for aerobic endurance (power for durations 4-minutes and longer), I have been able to equal or improve on my pre-amputation power. But my sprint power has suffered a lot, down ~ 250W.

Yes, I acknowledged your situation or was attempting to when I wrote this: From your perspective I could see how you'd be concerned about the loss of tactile sensation and athleticism. Like many of us, I'm sure you're sensitive to small changes, but even more so. I think the spindle under ball of foot enables more manipulation of the foot and lower leg(and your whole position on the bike) which is something you probably don't want to give up.

The above was one of the issues I was concerned about. Anyway, I enjoy your posts on the various forums and it's always very generous when someone shares their expertise for free. Thanks.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Ask Steve and he will show you.
By the way, there's absolutely no need to change your present prosthesis as there is other ways to work around the challenge
Give us a yell, Alex when you are ready to go through the eye of the needle.

Thanks G.

Steve & I chat stuff regularly and he fits me. For your info - my prosthetic cycling leg is a simple straight pylon connected to the pedal. I don't use a shoe on my prosthetic side, as that's way too problematic.

I had a special adapter plate made by John Bosevski to connect a standard prosthetic connector to a 3 hole cleat pattern, with a thin layer of rubber under the cleat to provide the lateral flex that our ankles normally provide. It works really well.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Yes, I acknowledged your situation or was attempting to when I wrote this: From your perspective I could see how you'd be concerned about the loss of tactile sensation and athleticism. Like many of us, I'm sure you're sensitive to small changes, but even more so. I think the spindle under ball of foot enables more manipulation of the foot and lower leg(and your whole position on the bike) which is something you probably don't want to give up.

The above was one of the issues I was concerned about. Anyway, I enjoy your posts on the various forums and it's always very generous when someone shares their expertise for free. Thanks.

Yeah, there is a bit off sensation loss and you are right I am very sensitive to things like tiny angle changes of the prosthetic components. No ankle means the height variations with saddle positions now has to be managed with knee flex/extension only.

I still track stand OK (though with left prosthetic leg forward).

Track standing starts are the worst aspect of riding with a prosthetic, but I can still win a roadie's sprint:

 

[biomac]

Thanks Alex, that's stupendous.
And good to see that you've already been taking advantage of riding a midfoot cleat with your left leg. Like a double World Champion on the road who dominated final bunch sprints using bio-mxc² .
Would you calm our curiosity and tell us where you put your cleat under the right shoe then?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Thanks Alex, that's stupendous.
And good to see that you've already been taking advantage of riding a midfoot cleat with your left leg. Like a double World Champion on the road who dominated final bunch sprints using bio-mxc² .
Would you calm our curiosity and tell us where you put your cleat under the right shoe then?

Neither "foot" has a mid foot cleat position.

The cleat on prosthetic is placed under where my ankle would be if I had one. It's what you might call "rear foot cleat position".

On the right shoe, my cleat is in a more traditional position, a little behind the ball of foot. Not sure exactly how much, Steve would have the exact amount but I'm guessing it's between 5mm - 8mm.

Here's the pre and post amputation power comparison:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2011/11/mean-maximal-power-unique-comparison.html

 

[Race Radio]

Very impressive Alex

I seem to remember Tyler Hamilton experiment with a midfoot set up?

 

[biomac]

Here you go, RaceRadio:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/phot...photos/2007/sep07/USPRO07/USPRO071/ODEA_-3889

 

[TiBullet]

biomac's native language is not English and it's my only language, so debate isn't easy. I'm pretty sure he does not mean any ill feeling, nor I towards him. We have in fact met once. I had two whole legs in those days though

He was showing me his use of the online SRM torque analysis system that day. It is certainly interesting, but of limited benefit in my opinion.

I just like to see good solid data to back up claims of performance enhancement, that's all, instead of the usual anecdotes and celebrity endorsements we typically see.

Mid foot is not new. Watch any local on a hybrid bike trundling to the shops.

I'm doing lot's of bike fitting with the retül system combined with a computrainer spin-scan. My most important 2 observations with mid-foot position are:
- biomechanics: more open hip and knee angles - thus able to ride more aggressive aero position than normal
- efficiency: immediate improvement of spinscan number of about 10% when switching to the mid-foot position, even if the customer does no nothing about mid foot position or which results to expect
however, there is more to biomac shoes than only mid-foot position (weight, upper, thin, stiff sole)