Motorized bikes: technical & theoretical

[sniper]

...
In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. ...

which reminds me, the guru in the gazzetta spoke of vivax assist type of devices (so possibly a different brand) that can be retrofitted to regular carbon fibre road bikes.
It's mentioned here:
http://road.cc/content/tech-news/177384-mechanical-doping-forget-concealed-motors-electromagnetic-powered-wheels

btw, some interesting comments below that piece, such as this one:

A motor is just a magnet in a moving magnetic field. In this case the wheel is part of the motor, but the problem is the large air gap between rotor and stator (perhaps coils inside the chain stays) which will reduce the efficiency. The same principle as a fork mounted contactless dynamo light. An alternative would be magnets on the crank axle and coils in the seat and downtubes. It would be nearly silent, but may be powerful enough to make a difference. Shouldn't be hard to detect though. Hopefully the UCI will make their findings public.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

...
In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. ...

which reminds me, the guru in the gazzetta spoke of vivax assist type of devices (so possibly a different brand) that can be retrofitted to regular carbon fibre road bikes.
It's mentioned here:
http://road.cc/content/tech-news/177384-mechanical-doping-forget-concealed-motors-electromagnetic-powered-wheels

btw, some interesting comments below that piece, such as this one:

A motor is just a magnet in a moving magnetic field. In this case the wheel is part of the motor, but the problem is the large air gap between rotor and stator (perhaps coils inside the chain stays) which will reduce the efficiency. The same principle as a fork mounted contactless dynamo light. An alternative would be magnets on the crank axle and coils in the seat and downtubes. It would be nearly silent, but may be powerful enough to make a difference. Shouldn't be hard to detect though. Hopefully the UCI will make their findings public.

Did I read somewhere that in the Van den Driessche case the dad had done some carbon work to her frame, and this led to some suspicion as the frame didn't look the same as others (but might have misread this)? So this could have been a case of retro fitting a motor to a carbon frame that was not designed for one.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Did I read somewhere that in the Van den Driessche case the dad had done some carbon work to her frame, and this led to some suspicion as the frame didn't look the same as others (but might have misread this)? So this could have been a case of retro fitting a motor to a carbon frame that was not designed for one.

Yeah, for sure.
But let's agree that the v.d. Driessches have shown us how it should not be done.
A bit like Ricco showing us how not to dope.
Those are not the cases we should look at to determine what's possible and what not.

btw, different Assist manufacturers (Varjas, the guy in the Belgian tv clip, and the guy in the interview I linked yesterday, and maybe some others) have gone on the record that they've been approached by pros and amateurs to build them a nice bike.
The piece I linked yesterday was from 2010. The manufacturer in that interview said the noise from the motor put many potential buyers off. But we know the noise problem was solved in 2011...
If this Varjas dude (the 'guru' in the Gazzetta piece) says he sold 1200 pieces in one year, he might be exaggerating, but even if he sold only 10% of that, that's still 120 motor cheats in the Italian amateur/neopro scene, in one year.

 

[sniper]

This is the piece i'm referring to. http://www.wielertoerist.be/J.O.Nash/verhalen/Bestaat-ie+of+bestaat-ie+niet%3F+De+Motor-fiets+van+Fabian+Cancellara/?did=9628&modus=view

June 2010.

What does the distributor say?

Renaat De Block is the man who distributes the Gruber Assist, the one Cassani demonstrated on RAI tv, in Belgium.
“I believe that riders can and would use this motor. Through telephone I have often been asked if the Gruber Assist can be placed in a race bike. I don't know if there were pro-riders among them, because they never said their names. But they lost interest every time I told them the motor does make a bit of a noise."

When Renaat looks at the footage that insinuates Cancellara was using a motor, he hesitates.
“It could be. Those handmovements could indicate that he is pressing the button to start the motor. You can hide that button everywhere. The battery too. In the case of the Gruber Assist the battery is typically in the sadle or the bag below the saddle, but there are also batteries which go inside a tube”.

The only doubt Renaat has concerns the noise. “Normally you would hear it. But with the public along the road the noise could fade of course. And if it is true that that French rider actually heard [a noise coming from Cance's bike]... Well...”

Could there be a noiseless version of the system? "Why not? If they have money, they should be able to develop something. And there is enough money in procycling."

And we know Gruber/Vivax developed a noiseless system in 2011.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

...
Did I read somewhere that in the Van den Driessche case the dad had done some carbon work to her frame, and this led to some suspicion as the frame didn't look the same as others (but might have misread this)? So this could have been a case of retro fitting a motor to a carbon frame that was not designed for one.

Yeah, for sure.
But let's agree that the v.d. Driessches have shown us how it should not be done.
A bit like Ricco showing us how not to dope.
Those are not the cases we should look at to determine what's possible and what not.

btw, different Assist manufacturers (Varjas, the guy in the Belgian tv clip, and the guy in the interview I linked yesterday, and maybe some others) have gone on the record that they've been approached by pros and amateurs to build them a nice bike.
The piece I linked yesterday was from 2010. The manufacturer in that interview said the noise from the motor put many potential buyers off. But we know the noise problem was solved in 2011...
If this Varjas dude (the 'guru' in the Gazzetta piece) says he sold 1200 pieces in one year, he might be exaggerating, but even if he sold only 10% of that, that's still 120 motor cheats in the Italian amateur/neopro scene, in one year.

hey, this is an informal rule on this forum, no one, NO ONE, no one criticises Ricky Riccio or they have to deal with me. Ricky Riccio, uncriticiseable[sic]

criticise parakeets all you like. but not Ricky Riccio ok

 

[sniper]

hehe. true story.

just saying, well, you know, he could have, like, ehm, be sort of..i mean kind of..a bit more, like..ah, cautious?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

...
In addition Vivax does not recommend fitting its motor to a normal carbon frame as the seat-tube won't be stong enough, it does offer its own strengthened kevlar carbon frame though. ...

which reminds me, the guru in the gazzetta spoke of vivax assist type of devices (so possibly a different brand) that can be retrofitted to regular carbon fibre road bikes.
It's mentioned here:
http://road.cc/content/tech-news/177384-mechanical-doping-forget-concealed-motors-electromagnetic-powered-wheels

btw, some interesting comments below that piece, such as this one:

A motor is just a magnet in a moving magnetic field. In this case the wheel is part of the motor, but the problem is the large air gap between rotor and stator (perhaps coils inside the chain stays) which will reduce the efficiency. The same principle as a fork mounted contactless dynamo light. An alternative would be magnets on the crank axle and coils in the seat and downtubes. It would be nearly silent, but may be powerful enough to make a difference. Shouldn't be hard to detect though. Hopefully the UCI will make their findings public.

Did I read somewhere that in the Van den Driessche case the dad had done some carbon work to her frame, and this led to some suspicion as the frame didn't look the same as others (but might have misread this)? So this could have been a case of retro fitting a motor to a carbon frame that was not designed for one.

It's not confirmed but would seem very likely; she had two bikes with a standard Wilier 'cross frame, and one which looked different. Tienus thinks they've identified it as her old Bianchi Calvaria she raced on as a junior before the Kleur op Maat contract. The frame attracted suspicion from other competitors because it visibly differed from the other frames which were identical and at least superficially standard (ref. Sabrina Stultiens), and they knew not only that Wilier only made one type of 'cross frame at the time, but also that her father had expertise in carbon repairs (ref. Maud Kaptheijns).

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

but also that her father had expertise in carbon repairs (ref. Maud Kaptheijns).

parakeets too.

I cant believe they took down that parakeets heist youtube clip, so sads, so doleful, so disappoints, so grammar...

it is like the day Lance had his people take down the STFU Levi XTranormal clips with Michelob cats piss.


Where should the apostrophe determining the possessive in cats piss, where should it be?..., what if it is ambiguous if it is plural or singular. It could be either or both, plural and singular?

should it be cat's p!$$ or cats' p!$$ ?

I am conflicted on this. I think I need the XtraNormal clips to determine this for me.

STFU Levi. Weak-willed Horner. #caveat albeit the clips were before Horner won the Vuelta.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Here is the bottle/battery. While this would not work in a WT race- with bottles being used and tossed- the idea shows how simple it is to do. The charge/discharge is through the 2 pins.


And this is the inside of the bottle showing the pack. The base is delrin machined to accept the pack. Pack is a standard LiPo, 5000mah.



Ill try to grab shots of the shifters and frame this evening.

 

[sniper]

good stuff! keep it coming!

 

[jmdirt]

RH's turbo wheel...you be the judge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLMfzLTc8M

 

[IndianCyclist]

I have an idea which could probably give good benefits legitimately. Typically the friction in the bearings is ~1-2%. In the turbo machinery industry that i work in, the trend is towards magnetic bearings. Magnetic bearings are especially used in high speed machines where the friction loss is reduced to <0.1%. if used in bikes that could give a significant boost to the cyclists. There is one problem though. The weight of the bearing tends to be heavier than conventional bearings.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

So Ill start with the frame. In this case it is a 56cm Carrera with integrated seatmast. The seatmast is really large- to accomodate the drive gear and motor.

The BB shell:



And the inside of the shell. You can see the drive gear:



This was a great deal of work. This was not a simple, add motor and go type of thing. This bike was specifically designed to house all of this crap.

More later-

 

[sniper]

very interesting froomestrong thanks for posting this up.

This bike was specifically designed to house all of this crap.