Mountains in the Vuelta

[luckyboy]

Was going to post it in the Stage 11 thread, but it'd probably be better in its own thread.

I've always wondered this, but why do Vuelta mountain stages so often just have a few small climbs and then the huge one to finish? There aren't road over many mountains, not enough passes or not enough big mountains close together?

Seems like they have enough mountain ranges..

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Was going to post it in the Stage 11 thread, but it'd probably be better in its own thread.

I've always wondered this, but why do Vuelta mountain stages so often just have a few small climbs and then the huge one to finish? There aren't road over many mountains, not enough passes or not enough big mountains close together?

Seems like they have enough mountain ranges..

A few reasons really. One is down to wanting to make sure the race is raced hard, but not too hard that it dissuades major names from showing up, since the race has at times in the past been a very provincial affair.

One is due to sometimes lacking connecting climbs (for example there is no Crostis-alike to put before Anglirú, Cordal is the toughest climb near there by far), but you could create some seriously tough stages if you wanted - like the one I drew up and linked from Ponferrada to Oviedo over Somiedo, San Lorenzo, Ventana, Cobertoria, and Cordal. Spain is much less densely populated than France or Italy, and as a result in some areas the passes are further apart. In other areas like Asturias, you can very easily create some seriously tough stages.

Another is all about the TV audiences. The Vuelta often doesn't get as much televised time as the Tour or Giro, so wanting to make sure that everything important is caught on camera means condensing everything into the last 2 hours.

 

[gustavoduncan]

you can download a dossier here on potential stages in spain that includes several mountain passes:
http://unavueltamejor.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dossier_puertosdesconocidos_etapasinnovadoras1.pdf

 

[luckyboy]

Ah some interesting reasoning there. Thanks L S.

It gives the Vuelta it's own identity I suppose, along with the highways and barren terrain. The La Farrapona stage is the only mountain stage that vaguely resembles a typical Tour or Giro multi-mountain stage.

It'd be nice if they had a monster stage with 3 or 4 big passes every year though.

Thanks for that pdf of climbs, I'll have a look at it tomorrow

 

[gustavoduncan]

Ah some interesting reasoning there. Thanks L S.

It gives the Vuelta it's own identity I suppose, along with the highways and barren terrain. The La Farrapona stage is the only mountain stage that vaguely resembles a typical Tour or Giro multi-mountain stage.

It'd be nice if they had a monster stage with 3 or 4 big passes every year though.

Thanks for that pdf of climbs, I'll have a look at it tomorrow

look how different may be the farrapona stage with a small change:

this is the profile of la cobertoria:

 

[roundabout]

I don't know about the TV time argument.

Look at this stage from 1999

Cobertoria starts with less than 50km to go. It's possible to fit 3 climbs into a relatively short coverage time. Yet this doesn't usually happen.

With the current stage design 30 minute live coverage is pretty much enough.

 

[roundabout]

I want stages like these back

 

[Descender]

The main reason is that the organisers don't want riders to make big gaps and decide the GC too early.

There are certainly many hard mountain passes in Spain that have never been used (or not often and not well).

These guys have made a very good list, click on the numbers to see suggested stage profiles:

http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/2009/02/28/puertos-de-paso-de-categoria-especial/

My avatar is the profile of what I think is the hardest mountain pass in peninsular Spain. It's basically Sierra Nevada through parallel roads to what they climbed this year. The top is the buildings complex where the stage finish was placed last week. The descent leaves the riders in the outskirts of Granada.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ah some interesting reasoning there. Thanks L S.

It gives the Vuelta it's own identity I suppose, along with the highways and barren terrain. The La Farrapona stage is the only mountain stage that vaguely resembles a typical Tour or Giro multi-mountain stage.

It'd be nice if they had a monster stage with 3 or 4 big passes every year though.

Thanks for that pdf of climbs, I'll have a look at it tomorrow

The thing is, even relatively recently, the Vuelta has had some big multi-climb stages.

This is last year's queen stage:

2009 stage 12:

But really, it's a long time since we saw anything like that 230km multiclimb stage I drew up. A shame, since there's a lot of scope for them in certain areas of the country, most notably Asturias. And of course, the potential for constant jagged up-and-down stages in the Basque country and to a lesser extent Navarre has been rather neutralised for some time now.

Would love to see something like an Andorra MTF stage followed by a short stage - probably only about 115-120km - from Andorra la Vella to the Coll de Pal, over the Port d'Envalira and Collado de Toses. Two long grinding climbs, with 20+km at 6,5% to finish. Simple, but effective.

 

[icefire]

Ooooh! That stage 12 from 2009 that riders smoked for fear of what was coming in the next two days (Sierra Nevada through El Purche and La Pandera)

This is the thing that puts Unipublic into stage designs with hardest mountain last.

Something that I think it worked well in this year Giro was having the hardest climb of all (Zoncolan) on Saturday and then a climbing marathon on Sunday. For reasons linked to TV audiences, Angliru has been left for Sunday. Of course, asking for a stage on Friday with more kms before Ancares or one more climb on Saturday will get an answer from the organiser along the lines of there will be defensive riding if they are too hard just before the Angliru.

 

[Señor_Contador]

I think the "Spain has no mountains" is a misconception or, at worst, a slogan. It is well known than Vuelta organizers purposely "lighten up" the mountain stages hoping it attracts the attention of the big names in cycling. At least those whose main goal is the Tour. If the organizers set up Giro-style mountain stages they know people are not going to show up. Why would you want to ride six or seven 2,000+ meter climbs in Andalucía alone, which they can easily do mind you, when your season is about to end?

 

[icefire]

I think the "Spain has no mountains" is a misconception or, at worst, a slogan. It is well known than Vuelta organizers purposely "lighten up" the mountain stages hoping it attracts the attention of the big names in cycling. At least those whose main goal is the Tour. If the organizers set up Giro-style mountain stages they know people are not going to show up. Why would you want to ride six or seven 2,000+ meter climbs in Andalucía alone, which they can easily do mind you, when your season is about to end?

Just a minor correction: There are only four 2000+ meter climbs in Andalucía than can be used on a road race. You may get to seven if you lower the altitude threshold to 1800 meter. Some of them can be climbed from more than two roads allowing for loops but some others only have one way up.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Just a minor correction: There are only four 2000+ meter climbs in Andalucía than can be used on a road race. You may get to seven if you lower the altitude threshold to 1800 meter. Some of them can be climbed from more than two roads allowing for loops but some others only have one way up.

Note: I did not say paved roads...

This is what I show:

Refugio postero alto 2,007
Sierra Nevada-Pico Veleta por Güéjar Sierra 3,367
Calar Alto por Aulago 2,155
Velefique-Tetica de Bacares por Velefique 2,078
Ragua, La por La Calahorra 2,041
El Buitre 2,375
Cerro del Rayo 2,405

Some of these could even be connected because there are dirt roads to the other side of the mountain. And the above is just the beginning. There is that Spanish cycling forum out there and some people, that (seem to) know the area say there are, potentially, 10-15 2,000+ climbs in the Sierra Morena area.

 

[icefire]

From all those I know Tetica de Bácares. It's a dead end road with no space to host the infrastructure of a stage finish. As for non-paved roads, we all know Unipublic's opinion on that. A concrete path like Bola del Mundo is the most they'll get in the race.

They did what on paper looked 3 good stages in 2009 and riders smoked the first one. So I doubt there's any need to go to dirt roads just for the sake of racing above 2000m. I'll be more than happy if they use Sierra Nevada through Haza Llana and Sabinas, Collado del Alguacil (~1800m) and Haza del Lino (~1300m)

BTW, I understand you meant Sierra Nevada. Sierra Morena highest mountain is just above 1300m.

 

[Señor_Contador]

From all those I know Tetica de Bácares. It's a dead end road with no space to host the infrastructure of a stage finish. As for non-paved roads, we all know Unipublic's opinion on that. A concrete path like Bola del Mundo is the most they'll get in the race.

They did what on paper looked 3 good stages in 2009 and riders smoked the first one. So I doubt there's any need to go to dirt roads just for the sake of racing above 2000m. I'll be more than happy if they use Sierra Nevada through Haza Llana and Sabinas, Collado del Alguacil (~1800m) and Haza del Lino (~1300m)

BTW, I understand you meant Sierra Nevada. Sierra Morena highest mountain is just above 1300m.

I think you know exactly what I mean.

There's no need for me to elaborate any further.

 

[roundabout]

3 mountain top finishes, 30 people arriving together on the first, group breaking up with only a few km to go on the second with 25 people still finishing within a minute, 40 people finishing within 35 seconds of Rodriguez today

There's keeping the race close and then there's horrible route planning.

 

[Anonymous]

3 mountain top finishes, 30 people arriving together on the first, group breaking up with only a few km to go on the second with 25 people still finishing within a minute, 40 people finishing within 35 seconds of Rodriguez today

There's keeping the race close and then there's horrible route planning.

yez, it has been a bit dissapointing.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

3 mountain top finishes, 30 people arriving together on the first, group breaking up with only a few km to go on the second with 25 people still finishing within a minute, 40 people finishing within 35 seconds of Rodriguez today

There's keeping the race close and then there's horrible route planning.

Funny, people were saying that the Tour de France was amazing and exciting, and by this point in the race we hadn't even seen a mountain.

 

[roundabout]

Funny, people were saying that the Tour de France was amazing and exciting, and by this point in the race we hadn't even seen a mountain.

And? What does it have to do with the lack of racing in the mountains in the Vuelta so far?

 

[icefire]

Just watched a replay of the climb. Possoni and Froome reminded me of last year climb to Bola del Mundo with the Xacobeo guys leading the peloton and Szmyd looking at them almost laughing and the snail pace.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

And? What does it have to do with the lack of racing in the mountains in the Vuelta so far?

Moaning that it's horrible route planning that has kept the GC close, but people thought it was a good thing that the Tour's horrible route planning has kept the GC close.

There have been quite a few options for breaking the GC up so far in the Vuelta, but they just haven't been taken. Certainly more than there were in the Tour at this point. We've had some pretty good days' racing. I'm disappointed at how small the gaps are, but to lay the blame mostly with Javier Guillén, I'm not sure.

 

[roundabout]

I think it's a cop out to compare this Vuelta with a race that didn't have a single first category climb at 11 stages in.

I also seem to remember that you were complaining about the Tour where your biggest problem that nothing of importance was going to happen on GC in the first 11 stages.

Nothing of importance happened in the Vuelta. It's easy to blame the riders when the course design made stages 14-15 or even Angliru alone more important than the previous finishes or the lack of a second TT or genuine superclimbers that haven't shown any weakness makes people within 2-3 minutes on GC believe that they can win on Angliru alone.

Edit: but that's straying OT. To keep with the idea behind this thread it also shows what happens when there are no big climbs close to the MTF. A single big climb stage is getting to be too easy when differences between riders have become smaller.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Moaning that it's horrible route planning that has kept the GC close, but people thought it was a good thing that the Tour's horrible route planning has kept the GC close.

There have been quite a few options for breaking the GC up so far in the Vuelta, but they just haven't been taken. Certainly more than there were in the Tour at this point. We've had some pretty good days' racing. I'm disappointed at how small the gaps are, but to lay the blame mostly with Javier Guillén, I'm not sure.

I agree with LS. Nothing wrong with the parcours so far. Opportunities to gain big time just haven't been taken; that, and a combination of no rider being superior enough to take advantage, like Contador did on Etna. And some fans will moan no matter what. It seemed as if the Giro was boring to some because of what AC did early in the race, and when the Vuelta is close it's still boring?

 

[Anonymous]

yez, it has been a bit dissapointing.

i still stand by this statement

 

[auscyclefan94]

Moaning that it's horrible route planning that has kept the GC close, but people thought it was a good thing that the Tour's horrible route planning has kept the GC close.

There have been quite a few options for breaking the GC up so far in the Vuelta, but they just haven't been taken. Certainly more than there were in the Tour at this point. We've had some pretty good days' racing. I'm disappointed at how small the gaps are, but to lay the blame mostly with Javier Guillén, I'm not sure.

Yes but the Tour had much harder stages throughout the race and saved the hardest stages for the end to keep the suspense. It is likely that in this Vuelta we will be crowning the new champion today or at the latest on Wednesday at Pena Carbarga.