National Football League

[movingtarget]

Re:

Elway also signed Mark Sanchez for $4.5m, and was trying to trade away a 4th round pick to SF to get Kaepernick, but Colin wouldn't accept the pay cut to $14m over two years Elway was offering.

From what I've seen, Osweiller has been forcing the ball too much. But it is true, had Houston not overpaid him, Denver would have, but he probably would have done better in the Bronco system, and likely at least a little better than Simeion. But Simieon came a LOT cheaper at $500k, and Denver has been looking at some tough salary numbers, having spent a lot in FA in recent years.

The problem with "grooming" a QB like that also lies in FA, the way the CBA is written, rookies come cheap. But the NFL is a QB starved league. As such, someone who shows any promise over their first couple years of grooming, can hit a jackpot. We may see this happen with Jimmy Garapolo this coming off season. Though he may also be the next Matt Flynn, and may be no better than Geno Smith, Mike Glennon, or EJ Manuel, all of whom have more experience, but will I believe hit the market as well, likely at a lesser price. Of course other QBs will be out there for the right price. Romo, Bradford, probably both Kaepernick and Gabbert, etc. but as I said before, GMs and owners tend to get enamored with QBs who they haven't seen falter (e.g. rookies) under the near blind hope this new QB can lead them to the promised land, often ignoring the other pieces of the puzzle that allow a QB to succeed.

Elway got a lucky break by not picking up Kaep. But he was smart enough not to offer him a lucrative deal otherwise Kaep was gone. I think he was counting on Kaep's dissatisfaction at being benched to get him cheap.

 

[Nomad]

Instead Elway threw away 4.5 mil on Sanchez. Lol. Sanchez is now got to be eligible for the top 10 list for all-time 1st round QB busts, right up there with Russell, V.Young, Locker, Weeden, Ponder, etc. (Sanchez was the 5th overall taken in the 09 draft...Sad). Keap isn't much better right now, though he isn't a 1st round pick and at least he took the 49ers to the Super Bowl his rookie season...so maybe there's hope.

 

[movingtarget]

Instead Elway threw away 4.5 mil on Sanchez. Lol. Sanchez is now got to be eligible for the top 10 list for all-time 1st round QB busts, right up there with Russell, V.Young, Locker, Weeden, Ponder, etc. (Sanchez was the 5th overall taken in the 09 draft...Sad). Keap isn't much better right now, though he isn't a 1st round pick and at least he took the 49ers to the Super Bowl his rookie season...so maybe there's hope.

That year when the 49ers made the Super Bowl Kaep was surrounded by good players especially the defense. That's why he should have taken the Denver deal as they told him that after 12 months he could restructure the deal. Even though Denver have dropped this year they are still miles better than the 49ers. I still think that Kaep has a good chance of winding up with the Jets who will be willing to pay for a QB. A few teams badly need one. There are rumors about Foles and Tyrod Taylor going to the 49ers. Taylor actually is a similar player style wise to Kaep but he also has a lot of critics it seems.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Trivia question. On the Thursday night pre-game show, Bob Costas asked if there had ever been a 2-0 score in an NFL game. Here is one answer from google search:

...there have been two 2-0 games in the NFL:
1) The Green Bay Packers defeated the Chicago Bears 2-0 on October 16, 1932.
2) The Chicago Bears defeated the Green Bay Packers 2-0 on September 18, 1938.

That through the 2008 season. I dont recall any more recent than that. Amazing. How boring those must have been.

 

[Nomad]

Trivia question. On the Thursday night pre-game show, Bob Costas asked if there had ever been a 2-0 score in an NFL game. Here is one answer from google search:

...there have been two 2-0 games in the NFL:
1) The Green Bay Packers defeated the Chicago Bears 2-0 on October 16, 1932.
2) The Chicago Bears defeated the Green Bay Packers 2-0 on September 18, 1938.

That through the 2008 season. I dont recall any more recent than that. Amazing. How boring those must have been.

Interestingly, it was the same two teams and same points scored just 6 years apart...what are the odds of that happening? Saying those teams gave a great defensive effort would be a gross understatement

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Speaking of defense, after all the talk and hype about how the Giants were now the best defense in the league, and could ride that deep into the playoffs, and the team was hot...they lay an egg against the Eagles. Granted, the defense played okay, though not to the level in recent weeks, but the offense didn't. The Eagles rarely blitzed, allowed Beckham to mostly be covered 1:1 and get his catches, concentrated on stopping short throws, and that formula worked very well. Eli threw his patented interceptions, including a terrific pic-six, but overall, the Giants now look very average. Above average on defense, below average on offense. They're going to need a similar streak of really good luck from their recent Eli Super bowl wins I think to get very far. Maybe they can play the Cowboys again in the playoffs, and Patriots in the SB?

 

[red_flanders]

Looks like Derek Carr is out for the season. Ankle, had to be carried off the field.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Looks like Derek Carr is out for the season. Ankle, had to be carried off the field.

Mariota also looks bad with a leg injury. What an eventful day. The bottom three teams all win ! The 49ers do the double on the Rams after being down 21-7, the Browns win but RG3 is hurt again ! The Jags win easily, Seahawks go down, Green Bay after getting lost in mid season are looking good although the final score flattered the Vikings. The Jets were predictably thrashed and Miami scrape through on another close one. The Falcons result was no surprise, their offense has looked good all year. A lot of teams going into the playoffs probably like their chances this year. Injuries are always important but maybe even more this year with so many teams so close together and no one team really dominating.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

The Raiders are reporting Carr suffered a fracture fibula that will require surgery. Mariota also sustained a fracture fibuba against Jacksonville and is done for the season. It seems QBs this year have gone down like flies. And there's still one more week of regular season football left...who's next?

The Carr catastrophe is very bad for the Raiders considering their backup QB, Matt McGloin, is an undrafted 3 year reserve with little experience. It's going to be a tall order for McGloin with next week's game against the tough Bronco defense, and then the first round of the playoffs. The Raider's fantastic season could all go down the drain very quickly

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The Raiders are reporting Carr suffered a fracture fibula that will require surgery. Mariota also sustained a fracture fibuba against Jacksonville and is done for the season. It seems QBs this year have gone down like flies. And there's still one more week of regular season football left...who's next?

The Carr catastrophe is very bad for the Raiders considering their backup QB, Matt McGloin, is an undrafted 3 year reserve with little experience. It's going to be a tall order for McGloin with next week's game against the tough Bronco defense, and then the first round of the playoffs. The Raider's fantastic season could all go down the drain very quickly

Let's be honest, Carr was the team. It's over.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

The Raiders are reporting Carr suffered a fracture fibula that will require surgery. Mariota also sustained a fracture fibuba against Jacksonville and is done for the season. It seems QBs this year have gone down like flies. And there's still one more week of regular season football left...who's next?

The Carr catastrophe is very bad for the Raiders considering their backup QB, Matt McGloin, is an undrafted 3 year reserve with little experience. It's going to be a tall order for McGloin with next week's game against the tough Bronco defense, and then the first round of the playoffs. The Raider's fantastic season could all go down the drain very quickly

It seems that the importance of having a good back up QB can't be stressed enough. Most teams don't seem to have one at the moment except maybe the Patriots, Cowboys and one or two others.

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

The Raiders are reporting Carr suffered a fracture fibula that will require surgery. Mariota also sustained a fracture fibuba against Jacksonville and is done for the season. It seems QBs this year have gone down like flies. And there's still one more week of regular season football left...who's next?

The Carr catastrophe is very bad for the Raiders considering their backup QB, Matt McGloin, is an undrafted 3 year reserve with little experience. It's going to be a tall order for McGloin with next week's game against the tough Bronco defense, and then the first round of the playoffs. The Raider's fantastic season could all go down the drain very quickly

It seems that the importance of having a good back up QB can't be stressed enough. Most teams don't seem to have one at the moment except maybe the Patriots, Cowboys and one or two others.

That's a great point. I didn't even know who the Raider's backup QB was until Carr got hurt. I do agree...the Patriots & Cowboys appear to be in good shape if either Brady or Prescott were to go down. And Miami is doing pretty good with Matt Moore...all they needed was a win in Buffalo to stay in the hunt and they took care of business. If they can pull off a win next week against the mighty Pats, they clinch a playoff spot (will Belichick rest the starters for most or part of the game making it a little easier for the Dolphins?).

All in all a great day for football viewing with key games going down to the wire. Even the Brownies got to celebrate as if they won the Super Bowl thanks to that pathetic kicker for the Chargers (I imagine that plane ride back to Diego is going to be real somber...how do you lose to the Browns???. Lol.)

 

[Gigs_98]

I just saw the Browns won. What a wonderful christmas miracle :lol:

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

The Raiders are reporting Carr suffered a fracture fibula that will require surgery. Mariota also sustained a fracture fibuba against Jacksonville and is done for the season. It seems QBs this year have gone down like flies. And there's still one more week of regular season football left...who's next?

The Carr catastrophe is very bad for the Raiders considering their backup QB, Matt McGloin, is an undrafted 3 year reserve with little experience. It's going to be a tall order for McGloin with next week's game against the tough Bronco defense, and then the first round of the playoffs. The Raider's fantastic season could all go down the drain very quickly

It seems that the importance of having a good back up QB can't be stressed enough. Most teams don't seem to have one at the moment except maybe the Patriots, Cowboys and one or two others.

That's a great point. I didn't even know who the Raider's backup QB was until Carr got hurt. I do agree...the Patriots & Cowboys appear to be in good shape if either Brady or Prescott were to go down. And Miami is doing pretty good with Matt Moore...all they needed was a win in Buffalo to stay in the hunt and they took care of business. If they can pull off a win next week against the mighty Pats, they clinch a playoff spot (will Belichick rest the starters for most or part of the game making it a little easier for the Dolphins?).

All in all a great day for football viewing with key games going down to the wire. Even the Brownies got to celebrate as if they won the Super Bowl thanks to that pathetic kicker for the Chargers (I imagine that plane ride back to Diego is going to be real somber...how do you lose to the Browns???. Lol.)

The Cardinals kicker isn't much better. He misses the easy ones re last week and gets the hard ones. The Chargers have lost so many games this year in an unlikely fashion. Their coach must be pulling his hair out. The 49ers scored two TDs in the last 6 minutes. The 49ers win their only two games against the same team. Yet the Rams always give the Hawks trouble.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Amazingly enough, one of those TD's from Kaep was with his arm, almost everything else from his legs.

Losing Carr will hurt the Raiders, no doubt. Matt McGloin played some games in the past, before Carr was drafted, and played very well in the pre-season. He's a pretty accurate passer, but doesn't have Carr's arm, and I don't think sees down field the way Carr does.

 

[movingtarget]

First time since 2003 that the previous year's Super Bowl teams miss the playoffs plus the Cardinals also crashed out. Denver never convinced me even earlier in the season. It will be interesting to see how far the Chiefs and Falcons can go. Ravens and Steelers looked like another good game, I only caught the highlights. Hard to see the Browns beating the Steelers next week or the 49ers beating Seattle, Carlos Hyde is out with an MCL which makes it much harder for them, maybe the Jags could cause an upset against the Colts. So the top three draft picks probably won't change. Chicago could beat the Vikings without much surprise.

 

[Nomad]

Re:

First time since 2003 that the previous year's Super Bowl teams miss the playoffs plus the Cardinals also crashed out. Denver never convinced me even earlier in the season. It will be interesting to see how far the Chiefs and Falcons can go. Ravens and Steelers looked like another good game, I only caught the highlights. Hard to see the Browns beating the Steelers next week or the 49ers beating Seattle, Carlos Hyde is out with an MCL which makes it much harder for them, maybe the Jags could cause an upset against the Colts. So the top three draft picks probably won't change. Chicago could beat the Vikings without much surprise.

That's not too surprising with either Denver or Carolina. Carolina lost 5 defensive starters plus their nickel back from last year to either retirement or free agency. And losing, arguably, the best cover corner in the league, Josh Norman, to the Skins was a hugh loss. Their offense pretty much stayed intact, but it wasn't enough, IMO, to overcome the deficiencies on defense.

The opposite occurred to the Broncos: 4 out of the starting 5 offensive lineman from last year either signed with other teams or retired. And C.J. Anderson was lost at midseason due to a major knee injury. Another big factor was losing Manning. Though his physical skills were deminishing and he missed several games due to injury last year, you can't even begin to replace his experience & leadership skills. It was obvious the offense with Siemian was lacking in this area. The running game was non-existent and the offense line had no cohesiveness to it. I think Elway has his work cut out for him in rebuilding the offensive line and deciding whether Siemian or Paxton Lynch is the future (if it's Siemian, I don’t see how Elway can afford to have Lynch, a 1st rd draft pick, sit the bench for a 2nd straight year).

And good to see Miami clinching a playoff spot with the Denver loss. Now their fate doesn't depend on the outcome of their game with the Patriots. Adam Gase has done one heck of job as a first year head coach. But the question is how far will the Dolphins go in the playoffs with Matt Moore at the helm?

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

First time since 2003 that the previous year's Super Bowl teams miss the playoffs plus the Cardinals also crashed out. Denver never convinced me even earlier in the season. It will be interesting to see how far the Chiefs and Falcons can go. Ravens and Steelers looked like another good game, I only caught the highlights. Hard to see the Browns beating the Steelers next week or the 49ers beating Seattle, Carlos Hyde is out with an MCL which makes it much harder for them, maybe the Jags could cause an upset against the Colts. So the top three draft picks probably won't change. Chicago could beat the Vikings without much surprise.

That's not too surprising with either Denver or Carolina. Carolina lost 5 defensive starters plus their nickel back from last year to either retirement or free agency. And losing, arguably, the best cover corner in the league, Josh Norman, to the Skins was a hugh loss. Their offense pretty much stayed intact, but it wasn't enough, IMO, to overcome the deficiencies on defense.

The opposite occurred to the Broncos: 4 out of the starting 5 offensive lineman from last year either signed with other teams or retired. And C.J. Anderson was lost at midseason due to a major knee injury. Another big factor was losing Manning. Though his physical skills were deminishing and he missed several games due to injury last year, you can't even begin to replace his experience & leadership skills. It was obvious the offense with Simieon was lacking in this area. The running game was non-existent and the offense line had no cohesiveness to it. I think Elway has his work cut out for him in rebuilding the offensive line and deciding whether Simieon or Paxton Lynch is the future (if it's Simieon, I don’t see how Elway can afford to have Lynch, a 1st rd draft pick, sit the bench for a 2nd straight year).

And good to see Miami clinching a playoff spot with the Denver loss. Now their fate doesn't depend on the outcome of their game with the Patriots. Adam Gase has done one heck of job as a first year head coach. But the question is how far will the Dolphins go in the playoffs with Matt Moore at the helm?

Gase has lived up to the good things said about him. 49ers interviewed him but preferred Chip ! Injuries and retirements are always an issue as the Raiders just found out. I didn't realize that the Broncos and Panthers lost so many players. I think the QB issue has not been resolved at the Broncos and it's a problem but then the Jets, Bears, 49ers, Texans and few other teams also have issues. Not sure where Romo will end up. The Browns will probably have to draft another QB with RG3 getting injured so much. The Rams seriously need a QB as well. I think they will sit Goff and try and get an experienced QB. Goff looks pretty raw at the moment much rawer than Wentz. The Broncos might give Lynch a good trial in the preseason and make a decision between the two. He looked okay earlier in the season. If Manziel cleaned up his act he could probably find a team but most won't take the risk unless they were absolutely desperate. His career might be done already.

 

[Billie]

nothing quite says holiday season like the AFC playoff QB picture looking awful. Matty Mcgloin, macho man Savage and matty moore let's goo!!

 

[Starstruck]

What a great modern sport!
Kyle Turley on Playing Numb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq9ytX0G5BM

Keith McCants on the War Within
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HsXEpfNZuc

Marcellus Wiley & the False Choice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIZvpHbmkDk

Nate Jackson on “hurt” vs “injured”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIx6g6G6wI

Radiolab on the beginnings:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/football/

Civilized my A$$. Bloodsport, and a human trash heap.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Re:

What a great modern sport!
Kyle Turley on Playing Numb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq9ytX0G5BM

Keith McCants on the War Within
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HsXEpfNZuc

Marcellus Wiley & the False Choice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIZvpHbmkDk

Nate Jackson on “hurt” vs “injured”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PIx6g6G6wI

Radiolab on the beginnings:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/football/

Civilized my A$$. Bloodsport, and a human trash heap.

I have to say, those are excellent links. Watched and listened to them all except for RadioLab. I have all kinds of comments rattling around inside, but will only mention a few.

- First, in one of those videos the commentator, who you will all know as a former great NFL player and former head coach, said basically that if guys who played 20-30 years ago are suffering greatly today, what are the sufferings of today's players (who are bigger, faster, stronger, and hit far harder than those who played 20 or 30 years ago) going to look like in 30 years.
- I would not say the game is a trash heap, but there are individuals in the League office, owners, coaches, and team doctors who do really unethical things at the expense of the players. And for what? Money, money, money; Money. Segue to:
- NFL hypocrisy at its best! As I have said before, the League talks safety, safety, safety, but continues to do things to the contrary. Cases in point, the testimonies in those video links of pill-pushing team doctors (at the direction of some coaches to be sure), who push dangerous medications that have long-term effects.
- Anyone who frequents this thread knows I love this game. So my intent is not to tear down the game of football. Rather, support change. Now, Marcellus Wiley is one smart dude, and ends with a statement about the institution of football having the ability to change the game and wanting to be a part of that. Not to eliminate the game.
- A few ideas how to change the game?
1) Others have proposed and implemented, through teaching at team camps and practice facilities, a better method of tackling that involves the tackler placing his head on the opposite side of the direction of impact. It also involves driving with the leg that is on the same side as the impacting shoulder, latching on, and rotating. The same-side drive leg actually develops more power, and the head placement reduces the risk of head trauma. I have mentioned this technique here before. It is not a totally new technique, and is being used by many NFL teams, colleges, and high schools. But it is not used everywhere, It should be MANDATORY.
2) That tackling technique only benefits the tackler and ball carrier. But it does nothing for the linemen. It is not hard to understand the game has to change for those player positions as well. However, I think that goal is going to be more difficult to achieve because the way the game is played might have to change drastically. For example:
- change it so that offensive/defensive linemen can only engage using hands. Prohibit bodily contact to the head, and head to head contact.
- I will mention this not because I think it would be a better product to watch, but because it is one example of how drastic changes could be. IMO, Most extreme would be to eliminate line positions completely, change the game to 7 on 7 (passing only), eliminate pads except for the helmet, AND make it two-hand touch (no tackling). Many teams do this in some practices already. Defense would use 6 DBs and a linebacker. Offense would use 5 WRs, one TE, and a QB. Without a defensive rush, QBs would be under a time limit to get the ball out of hand so that the play would not simply turn into a scramble drill.

Crazy? I know. But put some people like Marcellus in the same room to brainstorm and who knows what good might come out. Hey Roger. Listen up! Don't just put the owners and GMs in the room and give them the task. Put football people in the room.

Okay, Jerry Jones is a football guy, but he also has a huge conflict of interest. I've heard it said that he and Robert Kraft really run the League, not so much Roger Goodell. And it is that way because Jones is smart enough of a guy that he is the one who gets up in front of everyone at the owners meetings and says "Here's the next big thing for the NFL". Just what I heard. Not sure it is true. But it is believable.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

You gotta love this Belichick commentary:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...e-players-theyre-not-good-enough-for-offense/

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Didn't Belicheck build his career as being a defensive guy?

As to injuries and hypocrisy, I actually think the league has been trying to be active in making the game safer. I just despise the denial, and insular attitude they have. But the league, and players, and officials, have been pushing towards a lot less head hits, there is now a much more strict protocol over concussions than ever before, and much higher than in college or high school sports.

I think one step that would be a big mistake for the NFL to do is add two more games, or even another playoff game. We don't need the players playing more. I think training camp, with contact, should be longer - as Belicheck has stated, this doesn't mean full on contact all the time. Just more opportunities to prep. Let the coaches, trainers and players get fit and prepare better. I also think one pre-season game should be nixed, a second rest week added, and rosters, particularly practice squads expanded by a dozen or so players.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Bill actually played center and TE in college, then started his initial NFL coaching career as a special teams assistant, and later a TE and WR coach. He did not start coaching defense until a few years later, which was way back in the 70's. It was later when he became known as a good NFL defensive coach. Here is the interesting thing about how his playing affected his ability to coach. Some of the best defensive coaches were former offensive players, like Bill. And some of the best offensive coaches were former defensive players. How's that possible? Defensive players can take their knowledge of their schemes, how to attack offenses, and first hand experiences of what offenses try to do to them, and use that knowledge as an offensive coach to understand what defenses are trying to do and how to beat it. The flip is also true. Offensive players as defensive coaches know what offenses try to do, so they are better able to defend against it. In terms of understanding things, former QBs should be more knowledgeable about what the job is at every position, followed by offensive linemen, and inside linebackers. Not surprisingly, ILBs and MLBs have to know what everyone's job on defense is or the defense is screwed because they have to make the play calls, adjustments, and communicate them.

Edit: BTW, the thing I like about what Bill said in the article is I think this is a glimpse of Bill having fun in his own way, which is refreshing. I mean, it's like Bill saying kind of tongue in cheek that defensive players are not as good as offensive guys, but then he turns around and says offensive players (OL) are not as fast or athletic as defenders.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Agree 100% the league is trying to make things safer, and this is leading the way for colleges and high schools. Which does not mean that nothing is being done at college and HS levels. But HS is definitely lagging colleges. I have talked to a few college players who say they got more head trauma in HS as linemen or LBs than they did as college starters, mainly because they played both sides of the ball in HS and college did better job on teaching technique.

But the NFL is not doing enough yet IMO because they are scared to death of changing the product being watched, they are afraid of losing TV ratings, and they are afraid of losing money. The NFL leaders need to grow a pair, say screw the ratings and money, and do what is right for the players long term health by doing more than implementing protocols, which just treats symptoms. They need to address the CAUSE of the symptoms, which are the head collisions, and find a way to reduce that. And at this point the NFL has done absolutely nothing for the constant, chronic little head dings linemen get on just about every play. Give the NFL credit for concussion protocols, which is an improvement. But I challenge them to do better.