no more sprinttrains!

[Ryo Hazuki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WPz__Jqqo

this is from rutas america yesterday, raul diaz beats pelucchi from geox. it's chaotic sprint because as normal in these countrys only 6 riders per team which means especially after more than half were dropped because the wind, no more trains in finally and much more spectacle. I hope europe will move to this style of racing eventually. nothing to do with earpieces but less riders means less control means more action!

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

less riders I've always wanted.
9-GT/8-SR seems excess imo.

 

[c&cfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0WPz__Jqqo

this is from rutas america yesterday, raul diaz beats pelucchi from geox. it's chaotic sprint because as normal in these countrys only 6 riders per team which means especially after more than half were dropped because the wind, no more trains in finally and much more spectacle. I hope europe will move to this style of racing eventually. nothing to do with earpieces but less riders means less control means more action!

basically you want riders to become "stupid" again, right? lol

htc wouldnt use a train if the others werent always in cav's wheel

just like they did against petachi.. cipo..

we are talking about pros. not 50kg amateurs, were one or 2 are good and the others are garbage, especially in sprints.

i really love sprint stages and sprinttrains. they just show to us how tactical and professional the sport is. it's also something beautiful to see. and they dont have an easy life. only a few are strong enough to win. and they do their job.

also you can talk about everything related to cycling during a sprint stage.

 

[ingsve]

Well, the sprint on stage 2 of Paris-Nice wasn't exactly boring with 7-9 riders side by side in the sprint. The problem is mostly that Cavendish is too good to make sprints interesting and unpredictable.

 

[jens_attacks]

well this is like we would want the 60's tactics back.that won't happen.personally i don't have any problems with sprint trains or mountain trains for that matter.

 

[Jamsque]

I think what c&cfan is trying to say is that at the top European races the difference between the best and the worst rider tends to be small compared to many South American races, which means bigger groups at the finish. The heavier team training schedules over here also mean more organised racing.

Still, I take your point about smaller teams potentially leading to more interesting racing. I think 9 man squads for GTs are necessary thanks to the high rate of attrition over three weeks, but it would be interesting to see how the classics would look with teams of 6.

 

[spalco]

It would be interesting to see, but I don't think it makes that much difference actually. HTC, Garmin, Sky, Liquigas, etc. could probably still get 6 very strong guys to the front at the end of almost any flat stage.

 

[c&cfan]

It would be interesting to see, but I don't think it makes that much difference actually. HTC, Garmin, Sky, Liquigas, etc. could probably still get 6 very strong guys to the front at the end of almost any flat stage.

yes.. but no with some gc hope.

and yes jamsque

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

geox, andalucia, chipottle, are all here and didn't win yesterday. so the level is pretty high there and not as broad as pt peloton, but still good.

it has nothing to do with that though, with 6 guy teams in finally it means more attacks and teams and riders looking to each oither or showing initiative. of course it would change the race completely and I hate sprinttrains because it auto means not the fastest guys win, guys like chicchi or haedo are as fast as cavendish in my book but can't place themselves in tehse huge trains and don't have trains for themselves. remember back in the 90s without sprinttrains you would get fastest guys in front and most daredevil guys like adbuzhaparov, jalabert. now there are so many trainriders that are in the way.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

It would be interesting to see, but I don't think it makes that much difference actually. HTC, Garmin, Sky, Liquigas, etc. could probably still get 6 very strong guys to the front at the end of almost any flat stage.

yeah but what would that mean for mountains and gc guys??

 

[Jamsque]

it has nothing to do with that though, with 6 guy teams in finally it means more attacks and teams and riders looking to each oither or showing initiative. of course it would change the race completely and I hate sprinttrains because it auto means not the fastest guys win, guys like chicchi or haedo are as fast as cavendish in my book but can't place themselves in tehse huge trains and don't have trains for themselves. remember back in the 90s without sprinttrains you would get fastest guys in front and most daredevil guys like adbuzhaparov, jalabert. now there are so many trainriders that are in the way.

I really don't think that sprint trains lead to slow guys winning all that often. There are not many teams capable of dominating a finale and leading out their best guy to perfection, in fact HTC are the only team who have done it consistently over the past few years and the reason they put so much effort in to getting it right is that they KNOW they have the fastest guy in the peloton, so all they have to do is get him to the last 200m and he will win.

Garmin and Sky have tried to imitate recently but neither of them has managed to pull off the full on 6/7/8 man train more than once or twice.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I really don't think that sprint trains lead to slow guys winning all that often. There are not many teams capable of dominating a finale and leading out their best guy to perfection, in fact HTC are the only team who have done it consistently over the past few years and the reason they put so much effort in to getting it right is that they KNOW they have the fastest guy in the peloton, so all they have to do is get him to the last 200m and he will win.

Garmin and Sky have tried to imitate recently but neither of them has managed to pull off the full on 6/7/8 man train more than once or twice.

what I'm trying to say is that because of these sprinttrains many fast guys get no chance. I would love to see a fair sprint between haedo, cavendish, chicchi and galimzyanov but not going to happen this way.

 

[Jamsque]

I think you are over-rating Haedo, but I'm sure the other two will get their shots at Cav this year. His sprint train doesn't always run on schedule, and even when it does it isn't invincible. Galimzyanov has looked lightning quick at times this P-N so I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him spring one on the Manxman later on this year.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I mainly wanna see 8 riders at the GTs, so less control can occur, and more team (+better quality) can ride.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I mainly wanna see 8 riders at the GTs, so less control can occur, and more team (+better quality) can ride.

8 is basically same as 9. Not much difference I would want 6 or at very leats 7 in gt's as well.

 

[fatandfast]

If you watch the video at about 10 or 12 seconds in . The sprint starts and guys are rolling,soft pedal or just coasting waiting for the wheel the 3rd or 4th guy drops in after waiting for some kind of draft. Even in the early season stuff the bunch in Europe has way more speed and still have gear when they get to the line. The sprints in Paris-Nice are twice as long..call it a train if you want but pure speed from 20 guys is way different then this display. Look at all the guys sitting up in the middle..then watch Hausslers last 100 meters from yesterday.

 

[c&cfan]

what I'm trying to say is that because of these sprinttrains many fast guys get no chance. I would love to see a fair sprint between haedo, cavendish, chicchi and galimzyanov but not going to happen this way.

are you really trying to say that haedo and chicchi are equals or better than cav??????? just in your book. how can someone be so.. i dont even find such a word.

are you really trying to say that a train can make a normal sprinter win very often??

look at history, who were the guys that had a train and why? look at 2008 season and 2010 (especially the tour) and look what cav did without his train.

cav has a train because he is, by far, the best. he showed that on the road. reason for a train?guys like haedo and chicchi that are always in cav's wheel or preventing him to go at full gas.

and again, it is just obvious (even in your video) the amateurism in that race compared to the european races.

it becomes clear that you dont understand nothing of this sport.

 

[fatandfast]

8 is basically same as 9. Not much difference I would want 6 or at very leats 7 in gt's as well.

you may want to see the speed and wattage produced by the top riders after 100+ miles on the bike and at race pace. Forget races with lots of primes and time bonuses. Cav didn't win MSR because he was the best sprinter, he did it because he is a great racer. Ego maniac sure but fast just the same.
Renshaw is very fast, There are lots of teams with lots of depth. You may need to watch races with the sound turned off on your TV. The announcer make it sound like the other 125 riders are told "it's going to bee a sprint so let Haussler and Friere get to the front..go ahead Tyler,you to Cav get up there where you belong". Every race Boonen is in he is trying to win.

The people with power get to the front, nobody is handing it to them . Haedo and Chicci are big talents..but the how to get to the front is being left out of your view point. Petacchi, Boassan Hagan are just a start of the list of guys you want already dead before coming to the 1k to go..Grieple . Sky and HTC have big horse power nobody is giving anybody anything. If you have been watching this year Gilbert and Flecha can jam with just about anybody Cav included .

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

you may want to see the speed and wattage produced by the top riders after 100+ miles on the bike and at race pace. Forget races with lots of primes and time bonuses. Cav didn't win MSR because he was the best sprinter, he did it because he is a great racer. Ego maniac sure but fast just the same.
Renshaw is very fast, There are lots of teams with lots of depth. You may need to watch races with the sound turned off on your TV. The announcer make it sound like the other 125 riders are told "it's going to bee a sprint so let Haussler and Friere get to the front..go ahead Tyler,you to Cav get up there where you belong". Every race Boonen is in he is trying to win.

The people with power get to the front, nobody is handing it to them . Haedo and Chicci are big talents..but the how to get to the front is being left out of your view point. Petacchi, Boassan Hagan are just a start of the list of guys you want already dead before coming to the 1k to go..Grieple . Sky and HTC have big horse power nobody is giving anybody anything. If you have been watching this year Gilbert and Flecha can jam with just about anybody Cav included .

not the people with most power get to the front but the riders with most helpers get to the front. a big difference with number of years ago.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

If you watch the video at about 10 or 12 seconds in . The sprint starts and guys are rolling,soft pedal or just coasting waiting for the wheel the 3rd or 4th guy drops in after waiting for some kind of draft. Even in the early season stuff the bunch in Europe has way more speed and still have gear when they get to the line. The sprints in Paris-Nice are twice as long..call it a train if you want but pure speed from 20 guys is way different then this display. Look at all the guys sitting up in the middle..then watch Hausslers last 100 meters from yesterday.

the reason for this is because the group is only 40 guys left and there's no team anymoreleft with more than 3 or 4 guys so it's raining attacks before that and everything gets together. I'm not saying these sprints is what we would get but I;m trying to say 6 riders per team per race is better as well as it would be fairer for other sprinters overall. not the top sprinters now aren't top but it's hard for other guys to get in there.

 

[fatandfast]

the reason for this is because the group is only 40 guys left and there's no team anymoreleft with more than 3 or 4 guys so it's raining attacks before that and everything gets together. I'm not saying these sprints is what we would get but I;m trying to say 6 riders per team per race is better as well as it would be fairer for other sprinters overall. not the top sprinters now aren't top but it's hard for other guys to get in there.

seeing different countries produce slightly different styles of rider, I respectfully but completely disagree.

The depth of different regions is profound and I have been lucky enough to see it in S,N and Central America. Races and racers have very different techniques.
The number of people that can contest the sprint varies from place to place race to race. The subtle difference is that there is a standard at the highest level. Not that you are demoralizing your regional competition. There are standout athletes everywhere but even their best is often is just a small ring effort for the best of the discipline of sprinting, yes having helpers is great. Keeping the wheel of your helper is a skill that you have greatly discounted.

pro level sprinters make an enormous amounts of contact , **** pushes are not contact,hip checks and handlebar and shoulder slams,head butz that will send the unknowing untrained flying like a croquet ball hit by Ricky Ponting. You are still caught up on the drag race issue which is a part of it but not all of it. There are not many good sprinters that have all the components.

There are people that go for the little guy every time. The reason that Rooney is great is not the cash he gets it his abilities to get free,know where to go ,control,placement and then striking. Cav is no different, There reason he wins has something to do with him slamming face first on the pavement..over and over, and putting it out of his mind the next time the sprint comes up..not helper or pure speed but a combo

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I agree with you.

 

[fatandfast]

I agree with you.

I was hoping that you wouldn't and would agree to take all worlds best sprinters and have a field of 200 race in Qatar. No helpers or radios to see if my theory pans out. Thanks for posting the original video all racing is good racing

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

in 6 rider teams you can only bring in 1 or 2 sprinters if you are going for gc which makes it to me much more interesting.

 

[spalco]

But some teams couldn't care less about the GC and they would bring only their sprinter/time trialers anyway.

the GC positions of HTC in the 2010 TdF at the end were:
37. ROGERS Michael
39. SIVTSOV Kanstantsin
55. MONFORT Maxime
137. MARTIN Tony
154. CAVENDISH Mark
156. EISEL Bernhard
169. GRABSCH Bert

Would you say they had
[ ] a good Tour
[ ] a decent Tour or
[ ] a bad Tour?