Olympics - Individual Pursuit

[johnnh]

My first post on here - hope I'm not repeating anything previously mentioned.

Just read on the BBC website that amongst other events the individual pursuit is to be knocked on the head for the next Olympics. Apart from the fact that Romero and Wiggins will have nothing to defend it means the removal of what for me is the purest cycling event of them all.

Surely this cannot be allowed to happen. What can we do?

 

[jmax22]

We can't do anything. Unless we want to include watching paint dry as an Olympic Sport. That way the pursuit would be replaced with something a smidge more exciting that non-British people can win.

 

[blackcat]

We can't do anything. Unless we want to include watching paint dry as an Olympic Sport. That way the pursuit would be replaced with something a smidge more exciting that non-British people can win.

nope, not 2012 pursuit.

That promised a ripping event.

Thomas, Phinney, Sergent, Bobridge, Hepburn, Kuperasov, and there is even a few young Kiwis who could give it a nudge.

Wiggins has no chance at winning 2012. If he could not get under 4'15" in Beijing, no way is he doing a 4'12" to win in London, which is what it would require.

 

[Tapeworm]

We can't do anything. Unless we want to include watching paint dry as an Olympic Sport. That way the pursuit would be replaced with something a smidge more exciting that non-British people can win.

I didn't realise that the prerequisite of any Olympic sport was how "interesting" it is. If that were the case then a whole host of sports would have gone. Ever watched archery? Spectator sport it ain't. But the people have worked long and hard to get to this level, which is what it is supposed to be about.

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

nope, not 2012 pursuit.

That promised a ripping event.

Thomas, Phinney, Sergent, Bobridge, Hepburn, Kuperasov, and there is even a few young Kiwis who could give it a nudge.

Wiggins has no chance at winning 2012. If he could not get under 4'15" in Beijing, no way is he doing a 4'12" to win in London, which is what it would require.

You will find he could have done a much faster time in Beijing than a 4'15" however the schedule was created so he could take it relatively easy knowing the schedule he had coming up over the rest of the programme, and that none of the other riders could get close to him.

I believe his times in training both in Manchester and Newport were running very close to Boardman's WR of 4'11", and on longer runs than 4km. If Wiggins wanted to do the IP in London, assuming it is not dropped, then I feel he will break the WR, and do so comfortably, but I don't think there is more than maybe two people with the ability to do that.

 

[oldcrank]

That's right Dave.

 

[blackcat]

You will find he could have done a much faster time in Beijing than a 4'15" however the schedule was created so he could take it relatively easy knowing the schedule he had coming up over the rest of the programme, and that none of the other riders could get close to him.

I believe his times in training both in Manchester and Newport were running very close to Boardman's WR of 4'11", and on longer runs than 4km. If Wiggins wanted to do the IP in London, assuming it is not dropped, then I feel he will break the WR, and do so comfortably, but I don't think there is more than maybe two people with the ability to do that.

I know his PB was Athens, but I think his potential best time was 2007 Worlds, forget where they were, may have been Bordeux. He either caught someone like Escobar and his time was on track to be better than Athens pb.

So his 4'15" low, the pb, was in no means his potential. I appreciate that. And the IP is a race to win, with tactics, not balls to the wall for a pb. And when there are 3 or 4 rounds as there used to be, very strategic in how you lay out your efforts.

Interesting he was running close to 4'11". I never heard that. I am not sure I am buying that tho. He was very impressed when he saw his times in 2007, the 4'16" win I think. I do not know if he could have brought it down that much unless the disparity in conditions gave a 2-3 seconds bite. There must be declining gains, and the anaerobic power must be higher in potential, as a young rider, without the sapping miles on the road.

The lower the times become, I actually think the more the event becomes like the team pursuit, where it tests the anaerobic power, not the aerobic threshold. But I am not a physiologist. I dont think he could turn a big enough gear to go lower. Phinney on the other hand, he has a 1'01 kilo. Two or even three 1'01" efforts in competition. Clancy has a 1'02" and probably more potential, and he has a sub 4'20" in competition I believe, and the phsiologists like Ian Jones have said his output is where Wiggins is. And I think he has the capacity to go much lower in his times, but where Wiggins is, and lower? He has more power over the kilo that is sure.

 

[blackcat]

You will find he could have done a much faster time in Beijing than a 4'15" however the schedule was created so he could take it relatively easy knowing the schedule he had coming up over the rest of the programme, and that none of the other riders could get close to him.

I believe his times in training both in Manchester and Newport were running very close to Boardman's WR of 4'11", and on longer runs than 4km. If Wiggins wanted to do the IP in London, assuming it is not dropped, then I feel he will break the WR, and do so comfortably, but I don't think there is more than maybe two people with the ability to do that.

just one thing also that makes me doubt it. He took a slower schedule into his ride off with Huizenga in 2008 Worlds in Manchester.

And in the qualifying, he did not lay down a time versus Huizenga. He may have seen Huizenga's 4'34" I think, and decided to lay off, and change schedule. Huizenga told me he was really quite sick for the lead-up and post the Olympics, and I do not think he has been back this year.

But becaues Huizenga beat him in qualifying, why he was quite content he would win easily does not sound like the normal meticulous planning and preparation coming out of BC.

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

just one thing also that makes me doubt it. He took a slower schedule into his ride off with Huizenga in 2008 Worlds in Manchester.

And in the qualifying, he did not lay down a time versus Huizenga. He may have seen Huizenga's 4'34" I think, and decided to lay off, and change schedule. Huizenga told me he was really quite sick for the lead-up and post the Olympics, and I do not think he has been back this year.

But becaues Huizenga beat him in qualifying, why he was quite content he would win easily does not sound like the normal meticulous planning and preparation coming out of BC.

2008 was all about building performance for the Olympics, and aiming to produce good times, in events that were timed, compared to the rivals. For example, in the team sprint GB were beaten quite well by the French squad. All this before the main training camps to hit the results required before tapering to the actual Olympic event.

I was at the Worlds in 2008, and by the way in 2007 I think it was Palma in Majorca, and watched the qualifying, Huizenga gave it absolutely everything he could to hit that qualification time, but Wiggins seemed to aim for a time better than the 2nd place rider to ensure being in the final. Then in the final it looked liek Huizenga was cooked from about 1250m resulting in a much slower time, or I think that could have been much closer, even with a chance of beating Wiggins.

 

[blackcat]

BB Dave, appreciate the input and rounding out my (lack of) knowledge. Good to have full information.

I take you at your word, but I am still sceptical at the spin. Huizenga is a good second better in qualifying, and Wiggins does only do a 4'17" in qualifying and 4'18.5" in finals. If he really had 5 seconds up his sleeve, I would think Wiggins would have started out on a much faster schedule.

No one knew what Huizenga had up his sleeve. From 2001 to 2002 Wiggins brought his time down from 28"ish to 17" or 18" at Manchester Commonwealth Games, so no one knew what Huizenga had up his sleeve as a 23yo.

Wiggins went 1'08" high in the first km, and finished 1'02" high, 1'02" high, and shut it down because he won.

Compare that to Thomas' schedule at Manchester last week.

So even tho Wiggins shut it down, and he still had the teams, and the madison, look at his lack of dominance over Huizenga at the start.

I know in an Olympic year, they like to peak. There is another variable of peaking too, the one that Tour de France riders can coincidentally time their form to.

Wiggins is good in maintain consistency through his rides, and knowing what he has to hit to win. So that requirement fundamental, is quite different to knocking a WR out. And his training may be to produce his best top end, knowing he has the repeatability and experience, so he can more easily do a WR in training.

 

[karlboss]

4:15 and 4:11 seem a long way apart. I have never heard of wiggins doing anything approaching it in comps or otherwise.

 

[blackcat]

actually in a 2007 article with the academy riders on the track, Ellingworth was saying Burke's 3'17" was only 3 seconds outside Wiggins in form time in preparation for the worlds.

So I call bull$**** spin on the mail from BB Dave, but I appreciate your input, not trying to suggest you were spinning, just your mail is not credible imo.

So Wiggins 3'14" 3km runs 4'16" schedule at best, and fair enough, he has a taper, but I don't think he brings it down much below 4'14".

If there is the 2012 IP, Wiggins is gonna jump and not attempt to qualify, cos he knows he cant take those other riders in 3 years.

 

[blackcat]

one addition, BB Dave, dont think this was a false flag or misinformation, intelligence to throw off potential rivals. Wiggins did not have any rivals in 2007.

 

[Big_Blue_Dave]

There was an awful lot of work done in the 12-15 months to the Olympics by BC to get everyone prepared to break their own personal bests by the time the main competition (Olympics) came around, from the 2007 worlds.

Most of the endurance team went in at a good level of form, but not the best level in order to still improve by the Olympics. The coaches know that to peak twice in one year is detrimental to the performances of the riders as the second peak can be much weaker/shorter and/or more unpredictable in timing than the initial peak.

Then you have to add the equipment enhancements that BC and its suppliers created in all aspects of the equipment they use which created a number of watts saved or helped transfer more watts per pedal stroke than the old equipment, and you get the differentials.

 

[blackcat]

what, so his best time is around 3'14" ish, late 2007 by Ellingworth's estimate, and then in 2008 he has brought it down to 3'09" ish.

I dont buy it sorry. The gains from equipment are marginal and declining returns as you get closer to the ultimate point. Most of the drag is determined by the turbulence the legs create, which then react with the frame. There is only one way he could have brought his time down like that. He was slower in Majorca than in Athens, and in Manchester Huizenga put him to the sword in qualifying, but was neck and neck in the first km. If Wiggins really had so much up his sleeve, he would have selected a different schedule to ensure the win versus Huizenga.

I still hold Wiggins is fortunate that he was not going up against Hincapie, Cancellara, Farrar, Hushovd, Renshaw, in the pursuit, because I think all of those guys have him covered over 4km. But their income is via the road. Wiggins was fortunate that a Protour team persisted with him from Linda Mac thru Columbia. Wins in Dunkirk and l'Avenir don't cut it.

 

[seatstaysu11]

That way the pursuit would be replaced with something a smidge more exciting that non-British people can win.

Simulateur credit simulation de pret immobilier |Simulation de credit simulateur pret immobilier |Simulateur credit immo

 

[avanti]

........That way the pursuit would be replaced with something a smidge more exciting that non-British people can win.

Since 1964 there have been 36 olympic IP medals awarded ---the UK has only won 4 of them.

 

[Anonymous]

Since 1964 there have been 36 olympic IP medals awarded ---the UK has only won 4 of them.

but to be fair we have won the last two...

as for GBR medals

2000 - 4 (1 gold)
2004 - 4 (1 Gold)
2008 - 14 (8 gold)

2012 - Probably 8 gold again from ten events.. its just a shame we cant enter more than one team, we could probably put three teams out in the pursuit and win all three medals..

 

[oldcrank]

I still hold Wiggins is fortunate that he was not going up against Hincapie, Cancellara, Farrar, Hushovd, Renshaw, in the pursuit, because I think all of those guys have him covered over 4km.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wait....you weren't joking?

 

[Anonymous]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wait....you weren't joking?

no hes not.. clearly deluded and knows nothing about track riding though..

 

[doddy13]

some people seem to think that if a track rider can go to the road with sucess, then it should happen the other way round.
Meanwhile completly ignoring any track logic etc. Should we tell him perhaps that a pursuit is not a prologue.

That would possibly win funniest track releated post of the year

 

[blackcat]

some people seem to think that if a track rider can go to the road with sucess, then it should happen the other way round.
Meanwhile completly ignoring any track logic etc. Should we tell him perhaps that a pursuit is not a prologue.

That would possibly win funniest track releated post of the year

no hes not.. clearly deluded and knows nothing about track riding though..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Wait....you weren't joking?

implicit in my Hushovd/Cancellara thesis, was their appropriating the track skillset the GB team have. Now, before you dissect and deny this, look at Phinney. Only 18 months from when he got on the boards, to the Olympics. Dont tell me that cannot develop the neuromuscular adaptation and soupless for the track.

And the crossover from track to road and vice versa, is not simple. Bartko who was a great IP'er before switching to smaller gears and riding 6-Days which as Simon Jones says, is detrimental and incompatible to riding pursuits, he only one things like Tour of Brittany and Tour of Poland prologue, the old non-Protour Tour of Poland, where in the old ratings system it would have been a 2.2 or a 2.3.

So it aint simple. Success on road, in the last decade, was limited to MCgee and Wiggins really. There were a few Aus riders, who jumped to the Olympics like Brown and OGrady, but few others. I am pointing to riders who held both competency at once. There were the entire '04 Athens Teams pursuit of the Australians, they went to hold PT contracts all of 'em. But they could not handle winning both on road, and both on track at the same time.

And Renshaw, in 2002, he was part of one of the WR teams in 3'59" and as a 18 yo he had a 1'01" kilo on the track. Look at those achievements by a guy only 19, and you will see he had the ability to transform that into some IP ability.

The times they are breaking thru now, just proves since Bartko left, and Mcgee lost all the weight circa 2004 to ride GC on the road, the track has had extremely weak depth in the pursuiting, and Wigans did to an exent, cherry pick this event. I would have liked to see G beat his *** in Beijing. I reckon that was righlty G's gold, that the team management were able to manipulate, by not bringing him onto the IP roster and giving it to Burke.

 

[basujansb0110]

In Individual Pursuit, the eighteen cyclists were matched into nine two-man heats.

The riders start on opposite sides of the track from one another, held in place by a starting gate until the race begins..........
That's amazing........

 

[leebingate]

BB Dave, appreciate the input and rounding out my (lack of) knowledge. Good to have full information.

I take you at your word, but I am still sceptical at the spin. Huizenga is a good second better in qualifying, and Wiggins does only do a 4'17" in qualifying and 4'18.5" in finals. If he really had 5 seconds up his sleeve, I would think Wiggins would have started out on a much faster schedule.

No one knew what Huizenga had up his sleeve. From 2001 to 2002 Wiggins brought his time down from 28"ish to 17" or 18" at Manchester Commonwealth Games, so no one knew what Huizenga had up his sleeve as a 23yo.

Wiggins went 1'08" high in the first km, and finished 1'02" high, 1'02" high, and shut it down because he won.

Compare that to Thomas' schedule at Manchester last week.

So even tho Wiggins shut it down, and he still had the teams, and the madison, look at his lack of dominance over Huizenga at the start.

I know in an Olympic year, they like to peak. There is another variable of peaking too, the one that Tour de France riders can coincidentally time their form to.

Wiggins is good in maintain consistency through his rides, and knowing what he has to hit to win. So that requirement fundamental, is quite different to knocking a WR out. And his training may be to produce his best top end, knowing he has the repeatability and experience, so he can more easily do a WR in training.

4:15 and 4:11 seem a long way apart. I have never heard of wiggins doing anything approaching it in comps or otherwise.