"On the Juice" to "On the Wagon" to "Back to the Juice"

[cycladianpirate]

Just one for the tuned-in people here (I am not one).

Obviously, one of the tell-tale signs of doping is a previously average rider suddenly outperforming, but are there examples of:

1. A rider on the gear
2. Is successful
3. Thinks he can do it without the gear
4. Crashes and burns
5. Gets back on the program

?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

It's probably easier to find riders to doped hard, doped less, then doped hard again. Looking at riders who transferred between teams with more or less sophisticated programs is also likely. Wiggans fits the career pattern, but may not be the actual circumstance. Mick Rogers had a revival in 2014, but also isn't a strong "on the wagon" candidate. Probably several others appear that way also, just due to bad stretches in their career.

 

[sniper]

Just one for the tuned-in people here (I am not one).

Obviously, one of the tell-tale signs of doping is a previously average rider suddenly outperforming, but are there examples of:

1. A rider on the gear
2. Is successful
3. Thinks he can do it without the gear
4. Crashes and burns
5. Gets back on the program

?

Difficult, mainly because your #3 applies to nobody. You should rephrase it as "is forced by circumstances to try it without the gear".

According to some, Contador would probably fit that mold, though I personally doubt Conti ever fully got off the sauce. But sure, there's a case to be made that he tried it with less sauce in 2013, saw it didn't work, and then recharged to the max in 2014/15.

One of the clearest examples of a guy who toned it down and saw his carreer go downhill is Dario Cioni.
Was superstrong in 2004, a year that earned him a new fat contract to be leader for Liquigas. But at the end of that year he gets a warning for a 50+ htc reading which causes him to miss the Worlds.
Then in 2005 in his new role as team leader he's literally nowhere to be seen. (well, 13th in the Giro, but all in all it was a truly disappointing season.)
I don't think he ever fully got off the juice, but clearly he toned it down after the 2004 warning.

Similar for Andy Schleck and a couple of others.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Popo is another nice example, got off the juice or dialled it back a couple of times. Big time charger, got scared straight after his running buddy Bileka went positive in 2008, was next to useless for Cuddles for the rest of the season, then went back to the Bruyneel Astana, had a really good 2009 Giro as an aggressor and 2009 Tour as a domestique, then we had the computer raids and he's been anonymous ever since, save for that anomalous Gent-Wevelgem top 10.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Popo is another nice example, got off the juice or dialled it back a couple of times. Big time charger, got scared straight after his running buddy Bileka went positive in 2008, was next to useless for Cuddles for the rest of the season, then went back to the Bruyneel Astana, had a really good 2009 Giro as an aggressor and 2009 Tour as a domestique, then we had the computer raids and he's been anonymous ever since, save for that anomalous Gent-Wevelgem top 10.

How Popo is still a pro is beyond me!!!

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

I wonder about Tyler Farrar as a guy once on and now off. Him, Cav and Gripel were going head-to-head there for a while. Now Farrar is somebody's leadout man at 31.

 

[cycladianpirate]

Difficult, mainly because your #3 applies to nobody. You should rephrase it as "is forced by circumstances to try it without the gear".

According to some, Contador would probably fit that mold, though I personally doubt Conti ever fully got off the sauce. But sure, there's a case to be made that he tried it with less sauce in 2013, saw it didn't work, and then recharged to the max in 2014/15.

One of the clearest examples of a guy who toned it down and saw his carreer go downhill is Dario Cioni.
Was superstrong in 2004, a year that earned him a new fat contract to be leader for Liquigas. But at the end of that year he gets a warning for a 50+ htc reading which causes him to miss the Worlds.
Then in 2005 in his new role as team leader he's literally nowhere to be seen. (well, 13th in the Giro, but all in all it was a truly disappointing season.)
I don't think he ever fully got off the juice, but clearly he toned it down after the 2004 warning.

Similar for Andy Schleck and a couple of others.[/quote]

Thanks for that. I was only asking because it would be interesting to see an example of what I posited, but if, as you say, #3 applies to nobody, its a moot point!

 

[doperhopper]

How about LRP? Simply a bad/inconsistent responder? Or also some "off juice" symptom?

 

[StryderHells]

How about LRP? Simply a bad/inconsistent responder? Or also some "off juice" symptom?

I think it's more to do with that than dialing back/up his program

 

[cellardoor]

How about Iban Mayo? He had a few bleak years where it looked like he was off the sauce at the Tour at least. Then he seemed to start doping again, had a good Tour and got caught.

 

[Scarponi]

Cunego is one mentioned a lot.

Basso did not have immediate success until 2010

 

[carton]

Nobody thinking of Armstrong, early 2009?
I mean, I don't think with the amount of stuff he had done he could ever be truly "clean", but it seemed like he was seriously misfiring there for a bit and turned it around. You're right, it had to have been the diet.

Also Tommy D, circa 2009-10 seems interesting. Maybe the old US Postal guys discovered the gluten-free diet around the same time.

 

[vedrafjord]

Reasons to go off the sauce:
- Gentle tap on the shoulder from the UCI to keep things plausible
- You got your dream $$$ contract with BMC and you don't fancy living dangerously any more
- You got signed to the big time and now the passport is cramping your style
- Your favourite technically legal drug was banned/untestable drug now has a test
- (related) no more Zorzoli TUEs

Anything else? Of course as Floyd said, everything that happens without drugs happens with drugs, so riders can get sick or overdo or underdo training, or decline due to age.

The above cover the decline, but who has bounced back?

 

[blackcat]

Just one for the tuned-in people here (I am not one).

Obviously, one of the tell-tale signs of doping is a previously average rider suddenly outperforming, but are there examples of:

1. A rider on the gear
2. Is successful
3. Thinks he can do it without the gear
4. Crashes and burns
5. Gets back on the program

?

they all know they gotta be on the gear to get paid proper money, and be re-contracted. You have riders like Hildie or Hilde Kloeden who decides to go full *** in his contract year, then riders like Wigans and Hesjedal who know they are as talented as riders who earn 7 figures so they decide to go full-*** in their crepuscular years for a meal-ticket and superannuation.

I feel sorry for the riders from New Zealand and Canada and South Africa, cos their professional pathways are somewhat more constricted, and they dont get the second, the third, and the fourth chances that Linda MacFDJ CreditAg Cofidis HighColumbia Garmin Wigans gets...

I know, Ryder is a canuck, and Froome, for all it is worth, is not a Kenyan or Zimbabwean, he may have an Anglo passport, but the guy is a saffa, as much as spirit guide Kinja may say.

so they are the exceptions that prove the rule. And much thanks to John Robertson for providing an outlet for the Dawg and the former angriest man in the peloton Robbie Hunter.

as Biggie said
Juicy, time to get paid, world trade.

see euphemism 4 world trade = full ***
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juicy_(The_Notorious_B.I.G._song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZom_gVfuw

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Reasons to go off the sauce:
- Gentle tap on the shoulder from the UCI to keep things plausible
- You got your dream $$$ contract with BMC and you don't fancy living dangerously any more
- You got signed to the big time and now the passport is cramping your style
- Your favourite technically legal drug was banned/untestable drug now has a test
- (related) no more Zorzoli TUEs

Anything else? Of course as Floyd said, everything that happens without drugs happens with drugs, so riders can get sick or overdo or underdo training, or decline due to age.

The above cover the decline, but who has bounced back?

actually, you got it around the wrong way... to keep the passport level, you still need to continue your program. You cant just give it up!

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I wonder about Tyler Farrar as a guy once on and now off. Him, Cav and Gripel were going head-to-head there for a while. Now Farrar is somebody's leadout man at 31.

closest friend Wouter Weylandt can reassess priorities?

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

actually, you got it around the wrong way... to keep the passport level, you still need to continue your program. You can just give it up!

True, although I was more thinking of all the Mr Conti 60 percents like Tiernan-Locke.

 

[Maxiton]

they all know they gotta be on the gear to get paid proper money, and be re-contracted. You have riders like Hildie or Hilde Kloeden who decides to go full *** in his contract year, then riders like Wigans and Hesjedal who know they are as talented as riders who earn 7 figures so they decide to go full-*** in their crepuscular years for a meal-ticket and superannuation.

I feel sorry for the riders from New Zealand and Canada and South Africa, cos their professional pathways are somewhat more constricted, and they dont get the second, the third, and the fourth chances that Linda MacFDJ CreditAg Cofidis HighColumbia Garmin Wigans gets...

I know, Ryder is a canuck, and Froome, for all it is worth, is not a Kenyan or Zimbabwean, he may have an Anglo passport, but the guy is a saffa, as much as spirit guide Kinja may say.

so they are the exceptions that prove the rule. And much thanks to John Robertson for providing an outlet for the Dawg and the former angriest man in the peloton Robbie Hunter.

as Biggie said
Juicy, time to get paid, world trade.

see euphemism 4 world trade = full ***
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juicy_(The_Notorious_B.I.G._song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZom_gVfuw

Sums it up, pretty much.

Best line from the youtube comments on that video:

"Biggie predicted 9/11".



Thought I was going to need an organ transplant from laughing at that, though.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

actually, you got it around the wrong way... to keep the passport level, you still need to continue your program. You can just give it up!

True, although I was more thinking of all the Mr Conti 60 percents like Tiernan-Locke.

and you can think of people doping hard before getting onto the passport (that includes pro's in 2008)

 

[cellardoor]

Re:

Reasons to go off the sauce:
- Gentle tap on the shoulder from the UCI to keep things plausible
- You got your dream $$$ contract with BMC and you don't fancy living dangerously any more
- You got signed to the big time and now the passport is cramping your style
- Your favourite technically legal drug was banned/untestable drug now has a test
- (related) no more Zorzoli TUEs

Anything else? Of course as Floyd said, everything that happens without drugs happens with drugs, so riders can get sick or overdo or underdo training, or decline due to age.

The above cover the decline, but who has bounced back?

- You get a tap on the shoulder from Lance who says "I don't give a fig what you do at cr@ppy races like the Vuelta, but dope at the Tour and I'll make damn sure you're caught".

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

actually, you got it around the wrong way... to keep the passport level, you still need to continue your program. You can just give it up!

True, although I was more thinking of all the Mr Conti 60 percents like Tiernan-Locke.

i typo'ed sans the 't' in cant give it up

but you got the context and point, from the first sentence

 

[tantocomo]

as Biggie said
Juicy, time to get paid, world trade.

see euphemism 4 world trade = full ***
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juicy_(The_Notorious_B.I.G._song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JZom_gVfuw

Never noticed that before! Spooky...

 

[Oldermanish]

Re: Re:

I wonder about Tyler Farrar as a guy once on and now off. Him, Cav and Gripel were going head-to-head there for a while. Now Farrar is somebody's leadout man at 31.

Having known his profile I'd say no. He hit the deck hard many times during the Cav era. He hasn't seen any real support since and that edge goes quickly. He was mixing it up with Sagan last year in California but he's paid to be the leadout. That generally doesn't equate to the protection needed to win sprints.

 

[cellardoor]

Re: Re:

I wonder about Tyler Farrar as a guy once on and now off. Him, Cav and Gripel were going head-to-head there for a while. Now Farrar is somebody's leadout man at 31.

Having known his profile I'd say no. He hit the deck hard many times during the Cav era. He hasn't seen any real support since and that edge goes quickly. He was mixing it up with Sagan last year in California but he's paid to be the leadout. That generally doesn't equate to the protection needed to win sprints.

Another similar story is Bennati. At one point it looked like he was going to be the next big italian sprinter after Cippolini and Petacchi. Then he had an injury (back injury?) and was never the same sprinter again. Still, at least he has found a new niche as a top hard-man domestique.

 

[noddy69]

Just one for the tuned-in people here (I am not one).

Obviously, one of the tell-tale signs of doping is a previously average rider suddenly outperforming, but are there examples of:

1. A rider on the gear
2. Is successful
3. Thinks he can do it without the gear
4. Crashes and burns
5. Gets back on the program

?

Difficult, mainly because your #3 applies to nobody. You should rephrase it as "is forced by circumstances to try it without the gear".

According to some, Contador would probably fit that mold, though I personally doubt Conti ever fully got off the sauce. But sure, there's a case to be made that he tried it with less sauce in 2013, saw it didn't work, and then recharged to the max in 2014/15.

One of the clearest examples of a guy who toned it down and saw his carreer go downhill is Dario Cioni.
Was superstrong in 2004, a year that earned him a new fat contract to be leader for Liquigas. But at the end of that year he gets a warning for a 50+ htc reading which causes him to miss the Worlds.
Then in 2005 in his new role as team leader he's literally nowhere to be seen. (well, 13th in the Giro, but all in all it was a truly disappointing season.)
I don't think he ever fully got off the juice, but clearly he toned it down after the 2004 warning.

Similar for Andy Schleck and a couple of others.

Interested in the Schlek comment. What actually happened with his comeback and why didn't he get back to previous form ? Its not as if others had stopped performing. Comments at the time from GLM and Kelly et al on Eurosport called out without spelling it out that his previous performances were suspect- but why didnt he revert ?
Was he scared after Frank ? Was it down to not wanting to get caught because he was in a team where surely the correct programme was offered just not accepted. hence not performing at all.
I suppose what I did find strange at the time was how he was shot at for performing as he did. It could have actually been how a clean rider should perform and could have been the benchmark for how much others were doping- but rather than take that approach people decided to take pot shots (not all unjustified) instead of looking at who he was finishing with etc if of course he finished.