One more guy to make for an awesome Giro

[Kvinto]

In the times when almost every rider dreams of GT win, there is a huge lack of these suicide attackers, so their worth is also huge. It is the main point.
For me Sylvain Chavanel and Alexandre Vinokourov were more memorable at 2010 Tour than Denis Menchov (don't think that I disrespect him, it's not true). Or what Jerome Pineau did, trying to save polka dot jersey... it was more memorable than Hesjedal, Kreuziger or Horner's performance (all top 10)... People likes attacking riders, they make the show, and it's a way more memorable than any invisible (during the race) rider who suddenly reach top 10.

 

[Arnout]

There's definitely a line.

20th-30th? Yeah, nobody would care about that too much, so go ahead an animate the race. You might get lucky (like Nocentini) and hit it big.

A top 10 ride just seems a bit different. I look at someone like Zubeldia who's win in l'ain was his first stage race win since 2000, and only the second of his career. He's only had a four wins of stages or 1-day races in his career.

But he's good a very good reputation and lot of solid finishes. 4th in San Sebastian, six top 15 finishes in GT's, 2nd in Dauphine, 3rd in Catalunya... solid results from riding fairly conservative.

Would he have done better by riding aggressive, getting worse overall results but having a reputation for suicide attacks? I really don't think so. He wasn't going to win those races regardless, but a long track record of top 10 and top 15 finishes at GT's probably did a lot more for his reputation and earning potential then entertaining attacks that would have mostly resulted in failure would have.

Who knows Zubeldia apart from the inside cycling fans? What's more, who gets more attention? Who has more fans?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's definitely a line.

20th-30th? Yeah, nobody would care about that too much, so go ahead an animate the race. You might get lucky (like Nocentini) and hit it big.

A top 10 ride just seems a bit different. I look at someone like Zubeldia who's win in l'ain was his first stage race win since 2000, and only the second of his career. He's only had a four wins of stages or 1-day races in his career.

But he's good a very good reputation and lot of solid finishes. 4th in San Sebastian, six top 15 finishes in GT's, 2nd in Dauphine, 3rd in Catalunya... solid results from riding fairly conservative.

I see your point, but at the same time, Zubeldia is always overlooked for races. Nobody buys him as a threat. He doesn't interest fans like somebody who is less naturally gifted but captures the imagination, like Sandy Casar.

And what about Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo - both had Grand Tour top 10s on their palmarès before 2006/2010. Did riding conservatively for another top 10 suit them as well as getting in the attacks? Instead, because they got into those breaks, they got into a situation similar to that of a Nocentini or Visconti ('08 Giro) - but were too much of a threat, because they WERE GT riders.

This is why Machado should attack. He's about that kind of standard right now - a very good climber who can probably reach the lower half of the top 10 on GC. But if he dares to dream, he can be more.

Vino is a good example of somebody who is up there in GC who still attacks dramatically and regularly; is he any worse a rider than Zubeldia for it? Evans has become much more liked (and much more appealing to sponsors), won more and been far more visible since he threw away his defensive shackles.

 

[uphillstruggle]

And what about Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo - both had Grand Tour top 10s on their palmarès before 2006/2010. Did riding conservatively for another top 10 suit them as well as getting in the attacks? Instead, because they got into those breaks, they got into a situation similar to that of a Nocentini or Visconti ('08 Giro) - but were too much of a threat, because they WERE GT riders.



Vino is a good example of somebody who is up there in GC who still attacks dramatically and regularly; is he any worse a rider than Zubeldia for it? Evans has become much more liked (and much more appealing to sponsors), won more and been far more visible since he threw away his defensive shackles.

Pantani is a great example of this: only two grand tour wins yet he is held in the same esteem as people like Inudrian and Armstrong who have far superior palmeres. He also commanded a massive salary.

Results and talent are not every thing. David Beckham was/is no where near the the best footballer on the planet but is one of the most loved and richest.

 

[Matthijs]

A top 10 ride just seems a bit different. I look at someone like Zubeldia who's win in l'ain was his first stage race win since 2000, and only the second of his career. He's only had a four wins of stages or 1-day races in his career.

But he's good a very good reputation and lot of solid finishes. 4th in San Sebastian, six top 15 finishes in GT's, 2nd in Dauphine, 3rd in Catalunya... solid results from riding fairly conservative.

Would he have done better by riding aggressive, getting worse overall results but having a reputation for suicide attacks? I really don't think so. He wasn't going to win those races regardless, but a long track record of top 10 and top 15 finishes at GT's probably did a lot more for his reputation and earning potential then entertaining attacks that would have mostly resulted in failure would have.

Maybe he could actually have won something? If he attacked in a long mountain stage, he could probably drop all the others once in a while a get stage wins at all GTs. Maybe he lost his position and get top20 in stead of top15, but top20 and a stage is much better then top15, even in the Tour.
And besides, if the break succeeds, a rider can even gain time in the GC this way too compensate for dropping in energylevel on the next day...
Probably working as superdomestique was far better for his bank account though!

 

[Bike Boy]

I hope Hog beat some sense into him..

I don't think he did. Wrong school of cycling for that kind of rider if you ask me

Those attacks aren't beautiful cycling.. beautiful would be if he won something with his brain!

Depends on one's perspective. But the point is he will learn and grow on every experience.
Do I have to remind you how a certain Armstrong was riding pre cancer?

What's better for a cyclist personally... being exciting... or being boring with better results?

I know fans like attacking... but if the result of your attacking is a boat load of failure, while riding conservative gives you success... should a rider attack?

I think the mistake here is that it depends on the nature of the rider.
If we are talking about Machado, yes he should follow his attacking nature, it's quite possible he will learn better timing and develope his strength in the future, thus posses a much greater threat.

In comparison, Leipheimer is a rider who very much lack attacking nature. He's probably too old to change that now and he's also curtailed by his physics.

Two different riders, and two different mentalities. I wouldn't assert, that these two riders in particular, has got it 100 % right, but then again, some riders spend their entire career trying to get it right.

Each rider will have to learn from their mistakes in the quest for glory.

How many people would have heard of Amets Txurruka if he'd not been so suicidal? He'd have probably managed a finish of around 20th-30th at GTs, and be anonymous. Instead, he's a cult figure and hugely popular. If Rinaldo Nocentini hadn't dared to dream he'd never have got a week in yellow. If he rode conservatively to try and get a good GC position he wouldn't have finished any higher than he did anyway, and he wouldn't have had a week in yellow, which is much higher exposure than riding around in the first group behind the heads of state.

Also, sponsors love a guy that will get them lots of exposure. Paolo Tiralongo had a great ride at the 2009 Vuelta, and finished 7th overall. But we barely saw him all race. Johnny Hoogerland finished 12th, and we saw a lot of him. Tommy Voeckler can command more from sponsors than many riders who have better stage racing records than him, for this reason.

I couldn't cut it short, too much to agree with!

Who knows Zubeldia apart from the inside cycling fans? What's more, who gets more attention? Who has more fans?

To be fair you could say the same about Txurruka.

I see your point, but at the same time, Zubeldia is always overlooked for races. Nobody buys him as a threat. He doesn't interest fans like somebody who is less naturally gifted but captures the imagination, like Sandy Casar.

Agree but, the history of cycling will also show, that the likes of Zubeldia is necessary, and their anonymous team effort, is very appreciated. Again it boils down to mentality.

And what about Óscar Pereiro or David Arroyo - both had Grand Tour top 10s on their palmarès before 2006/2010. Did riding conservatively for another top 10 suit them as well as getting in the attacks? Instead, because they got into those breaks, they got into a situation similar to that of a Nocentini or Visconti ('08 Giro) - but were too much of a threat, because they WERE GT riders.

This is why Machado should attack. He's about that kind of standard right now - a very good climber who can probably reach the lower half of the top 10 on GC. But if he dares to dream, he can be more.

Again, I agree completely. Especially the comparison with Pereiro underlines my point. Attacking mentality combined with strength.