Paging BigBoat

[BikeCentric]

Looks like you were right in all your claims a year ago. Come back and take a bow.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

You mean the guy who used to talk about Bruynel's boys being on cow blood, IGF-1, HBOC's, PFCE's etc? The guy who claimed that they would dope their crits up to 60%, extract enough blood to get down to 49%, re-inject it right before a mountain stage or TT and then extract it again right after the stage? Yeah, he sure knew what he was talking about... I for one am a bit surprised by how basic the doping programme revealed by Floyd was. I mean, HGH, a couple of units of packed cells, saline drip and micro-doses of EPO IV isn't exactly cutting edge stuff. Autologous blood doping being undetectable is nothing new, HGH being damn near undetectable is nothing new, saline infusions to lower your crit is nothing new, and micro-dosing being very, very difficult to expose is certainly not anything we didn't know about either. Bengt Saltin talked about it in the mid 00's.

 

[Escarabajo]

You mean the guy who used to talk about Bruynel's boys being on cow blood, IGF-1, HBOC's, PFCE's etc? The guy who claimed that they would dope their crits up to 60%, extract enough blood to get down to 49%, re-inject it right before a mountain stage or TT and then extract it again right after the stage? Yeah, he sure knew what he was talking about... I for one am a bit surprised by how basic the doping programme revealed by Floyd was. I mean, HGH, a couple of units of packed cells, saline drip and micro-doses of EPO IV isn't exactly cutting edge stuff. Autologous blood doping being undetectable is nothing new, HGH being damn near undetectable is nothing new, saline infusions to lower your crit is nothing new, and micro-dosing being very, very difficult to expose is certainly not anything we didn't know about either. Bengt Saltin talked about it in the mid 00's.

But not the use of EPO during a GT. That was not well known. Or was it for you?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I can't say I knew, it's not like I have inside information, but a doping expert had claimed that a small enough dose of EPO IV will clear your system in 6-8 hours. Frei even said X iu of EPO becomes undetectable after 8 hours.

 

[BroDeal]

But not the use of EPO during a GT. That was not well known. Or was it for you?

Ashenden was naive. He reasoned that riders would not carry EPO with them during a GT because of the risk of being caught with the drug. But any rider who is planning on having his chilled blood couriered to him in the middle of a GT will not have a problem using the same people to courier EPO or HGH or testosterone or whatever. Rumsas showed us the way when he had his wife carrying his supply during the TdF.

BigBoat's posts were filled with BS as well as good info. Most of his "first hand" experience had the distinct reek of google research being passed off as real world experience.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

You mean the guy who used to talk about Bruynel's boys being on cow blood, IGF-1, HBOC's, PFCE's etc? The guy who claimed that they would dope their crits up to 60%, extract enough blood to get down to 49%, re-inject it right before a mountain stage or TT and then extract it again right after the stage? Yeah, he sure knew what he was talking about... I for one am a bit surprised by how basic the doping programme revealed by Floyd was. I mean, HGH, a couple of units of packed cells, saline drip and micro-doses of EPO IV isn't exactly cutting edge stuff. Autologous blood doping being undetectable is nothing new, HGH being damn near undetectable is nothing new, saline infusions to lower your crit is nothing new, and micro-dosing being very, very difficult to expose is certainly not anything we didn't know about either. Bengt Saltin talked about it in the mid 00's.

Remember, Landis is talking about what was being done 4-10 years ago, not today. He's out of the loop today, and has been, apparently.

 

[Escarabajo]

Ashenden was naive. He reasoned that riders would not carry EPO with them during a GT because of the risk of being caught with the drug. But any rider who is planning on having his chilled blood couriered to him in the middle of a GT will not have a problem using the same people to courier EPO or HGH or testosterone or whatever. Rumsas showed us the way when he had his wife carrying his supply during the TdF.

BigBoat's posts were filled with BS as well as good info. Most of his "first hand" experience had the distinct reek of google research being passed off as real world experience.

But nobody said that in this Forum, let's be honest. Everybody thought that the EPO was used after the blood was taken out in order to bring up the red blood cell count as fast as possible. The other opinion in this forum was to use EPO for charging the blood red cell count before being taken out. Other than that we only thought that riders with no money were doing it the renegade way.

Or wasn't it like that Bro?

 

[Race Radio]

But nobody said that in this Forum, let's be honest. Everybody thought that the EPO was used after the blood was taken out in order to bring up the red blood cell count as fast as possible. The other opinion in this forum was to use EPO for charging the blood red cell count before being taken out. Other than that we only thought that riders with no money were doing it the renegade way.

Or wasn't it like that Bro?

I have posted a few times in the past that micro dosing was used to insure that a riders off score did not go silly while transfusing. I have to say I am surprised that Ashenden said he was not aware of this as I am almost certain he has mentioned it in the past.

 

[BikeCentric]

But nobody said that in this Forum, let's be honest. Everybody thought that the EPO was used after the blood was taken out in order to bring up the red blood cell count as fast as possible. The other opinion in this forum was to use EPO for charging the blood red cell count before being taken out. Other than that we only thought that riders with no money were doing it the renegade way.

Or wasn't it like that Bro?

That's the way I read it. I personally thought they were off EPO at races and for the vast majority of the season and were using autologous blood doping (transfusions) in place of it. I thought the EPO test created by Ashenden had pushed them to transfusions.

Now we find out that intravenous EPO injection has a 6-hour window to test positive, confirmed by Ashenden himself. In other words, the EPO test simply doesn't work for all practical purposes.

 

[Cobblestones]

Now we find out that intravenous EPO injection has a 6-hour window to test positive, confirmed by Ashenden himself. In other words, the EPO test simply doesn't work for all practical purposes.

That's a revelation. I mean we discussed stuff like this, but the point is really the following:

1) yes we call it microdosing, but we never had a precise number to work with (how much do you need to make it effective)
2) we talked about the EPO test and microdosing, but we didn't know the window of detection (which of course depends on the dose in the first place, so see point 1)

It's instructive. A 6 hour test window for an effective drug? So you put it in somewhere between 10 p.m. and midnight. The vampires won't show up in the middle of the night. By morning you're in the clear.

Conclusion: there's no test for effective microdosing. I don't think we could state that with confidence before.

ETA: and yes, BigBoat should come back. Haven't seen a decent Nike rant for too long.

 

[BikeCentric]

ETA: and yes, BigBoat should come back. Haven't seen a decent Nike rant for too long.

LOL Alpe is always good for a decent Nike rant!

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Remember, Landis is talking about what was being done 4-10 years ago, not today. He's out of the loop today, and has been, apparently.

True, but at least the part about extracting and re-injecting blood throughout the Tour is something he picked up in a 5 year old interview and tried to pass off as inside knowledge.

Now we find out that intravenous EPO injection has a 6-hour window to test positive, confirmed by Ashenden himself. In other words, the EPO test simply doesn't work for all practical purposes.

But that isn't news at all! It has been said before.

The most interesting bit of info I've come across since Floyd spoke up is Ashenden revealing that micro-dosing causes plasma expansion. I'd like to know why and to what extent. And why doesn't normal dosage have this effect? Or does it? In that case, micro-dosing is obviously not as effective (since standard-doses would result in a raised hct whereas micro-dosing apparently doesn't), which seems logical and would explain why riders use transfusions at the most important races.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

BigBoat was indeed amusing and I miss him at times, but his claims were anything but ingenious foresight. He just had a louder horn than most of the others on here.

Still say he's Mustard Junkie on YouTube, and one of the top posters on CEM. Though I guess it doesn't matter.

Edit - In case you're reading BigB, don't take that as a slight, you're welcome to return and keep posting.

 

[blackcat]

You mean the guy who used to talk about Bruynel's boys being on cow blood, IGF-1, HBOC's, PFCE's etc? The guy who claimed that they would dope their crits up to 60%, extract enough blood to get down to 49%, re-inject it right before a mountain stage or TT and then extract it again right after the stage? Yeah, he sure knew what he was talking about... I for one am a bit surprised by how basic the doping programme revealed by Floyd was. I mean, HGH, a couple of units of packed cells, saline drip and micro-doses of EPO IV isn't exactly cutting edge stuff. Autologous blood doping being undetectable is nothing new, HGH being damn near undetectable is nothing new, saline infusions to lower your crit is nothing new, and micro-dosing being very, very difficult to expose is certainly not anything we didn't know about either. Bengt Saltin talked about it in the mid 00's.

actually, Landis was using simplicity as a tactic imo. I mean, StrongArm was using one of the more dangerous products, insulin. So bet he was doing anything. Read what Frankie had to say, circa a '94 training camp, StrongArm spreading all the pills he was taking, over a bed.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/tour-like-a-mobile-pharmacy-10544

 

[filipo]

Lance was a lot less careful in those days. Maybe he didn't need to be.

 

[BikeCentric]

But that isn't news at all! It has been said before.

The most interesting bit of info I've come across since Floyd spoke up is Ashenden revealing that micro-dosing causes plasma expansion. I'd like to know why and to what extent. And why doesn't normal dosage have this effect? Or does it? In that case, micro-dosing is obviously not as effective (since standard-doses would result in a raised hct whereas micro-dosing apparently doesn't), which seems logical and would explain why riders use transfusions at the most important races.

It's news because Ashenden did a study and confirmed the claim.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

So did Rasmussen a few years ago...

Andriol being used in-competition was a surprise. How does that work? Can you micro-dose it too and fly under the radar?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

"EPO is no longer the primary source of the gains, it's just something you use to make it look like everything is normal," said the person with knowledge of Landis' conversations. "You get the transfusion, and that's what skews the values. You correct that by using small doses of EPO."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...ls_turning_on_lance.html?page=1#ixzz0pAvQdeAP

So micro-dosing of EPO is mainly used to bring up your retics after a transfusion?

 

[Race Radio]

So micro-dosing of EPO is mainly used to bring up your retics after a transfusion?

Yes. But really this has been known for a while

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

How big a difference do you figure micro-dosing does on its own then? Obviously less than a unit of packed cells anyway.

 

[tofino]

passport issue

Yes. But really this has been known for a while

But thats the argument regarding the Bio passport. IF you have enough money to run all your own tests in advance (say at some traning camp) you can figure out how to keep your passport info level throughout the season and through a stage race. So when you get the transfusion you know exactly how much micro dose you need to keep everything level.

Now someones levels should decrease over a three week grand tour but the PhD doctor who pointed that out to Pharma was shouted down. If everything is level the passport says you're fine. Forget the actually science of what SHOULD happen to your body/blood work over a three week grand tour.

 

[buckwheat]

BigBoat was indeed amusing and I miss him at times, but his claims were anything but ingenious foresight. He just had a louder horn than most of the others on here.

Still say he's Mustard Junkie on YouTube, and one of the top posters on CEM. Though I guess it doesn't matter.

Edit - In case you're reading BigB, don't take that as a slight, you're welcome to return and keep posting.

Is he Realgains?

That guy should have his own TV show. Kinda like Howard Beale for PED's and endurance sports/training.

 

[blackcat]

yep he is RG

 

[Nick777]

What is the CEM forum?

 

[blackcat]

cutting edge muscle

where doperz goez to dopez