Paying rival rider's off

[Sanitiser]

There is probably some nifty cycling term for it but do you still think it happens today? The same disparities between salaries occurs today or has the modern team orientated strategy won out?

 

[Barrus]

IS this truly doping related or do you just mean regularly during a race or something?

 

[Sanitiser]

During a race. You can put in the professional forum if you like but I prefer the term 'money doping' like 'motor doping'.

 

[Mambo95]

Sure it still happens. It always has done. I doubt it happens much in the big races though, as the sponsors invest much more these days. And I think the currency is more 'favours' these days, rather than cash (e.g. Contador riding for Valverde in the 2009 Dauphine)

At a much lower level, on one of the Real Peloton podcasts, Dean Downing told a few amusing stories about riding kermesses in Belgium.

 

[Sanitiser]

I've heard about kermesses but they seemed like they were like WWF where the winner was decided from the start, rather than a pragmatic decision during a race.

It must happen on the conti level though.

 

[Oldman]

Sure it still happens. It always has done. I doubt it happens much in the big races though, as the sponsors invest much more these days. And I think the currency is more 'favours' these days, rather than cash (e.g. Contador riding for Valverde in the 2009 Dauphine)

At a much lower level, on one of the Real Peloton podcasts, Dean Downing told a few amusing stories about riding kermesses in Belgium.

It always happens in big races as well. If not an exchange of cash an exchange of favors is the best way for a rider/team to get support when a race better suits their strengths. You see it often when a sprinter's team is inexplicably setting tempo on a flat interlude before a mountain finish, saving the energy of an opponent's domestiques that can climb.
Is it cheating or part of a time honored tradition of reciprocal "sportsmanship"? We've all chased riders we don't like because we don't want them to succeed, at all costs.

 

[BotanyBay]

According to Boyer, he's still owned some cash.

 

[Sanitiser]

The 'favours' thing is most transparent in 'Overcoming'. It is strongly alluded to that Armstrong gives the win to Basso for his mother and then the next day Basso gives the stage to Armstrong as a favour, with Bjarne *****ing.

 

[Mambo95]

It always happens in big races as well. If not an exchange of cash an exchange of favors is the best way for a rider/team to get support when a race better suits their strengths. You see it often when a sprinter's team is inexplicably setting tempo on a flat interlude before a mountain finish, saving the energy of an opponent's domestiques that can climb.
Is it cheating or part of a time honored tradition of reciprocal "sportsmanship"? We've all chased riders we don't like because we don't want them to succeed, at all costs.

Yeah - support, sure - what I meant you can't buy a win any more in a big race. There are plenty of rumours about the olden days about big races being bought (e.g. Simpson v Altig at the 1965 Worlds is one that has persisted)

 

[Oldman]

Yeah - support, sure - what I meant you can't buy a win any more in a big race. There are plenty of rumours about the olden days about big races being bought (e.g. Simpson v Altig at the 1965 Worlds is one that has persisted)

I'd generally agree except when a DS knows he has no hope and thinks he can offer his teams services during a race. That would not mean giving up a placing, since they didn't have a shot; but could mean directly benefitting another team for whatever reason. Having said that the other DS's would also know something was up and could find a way to retaliate. That starts getting into gamesmanship that major sponsorship wouldn't appreciate knowing about unless they get the wins.
The mutual tactical enemy is the most transparent and appropriate cooperation and I can't give you recent evidence of the darker trades that are made, just speculate.

 

[Chuffy]

It's one of the great ironies that in cycling, buying off an opponent was all part of the game. In football it's called 'match-fixing'...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yeah - support, sure - what I meant you can't buy a win any more in a big race. There are plenty of rumours about the olden days about big races being bought (e.g. Simpson v Altig at the 1965 Worlds is one that has persisted)

A Vuelta stage is a big race'.

Deignan talks about his stage win in 2009.

“He turned to me with three kilometre to go as said “How much ?”. I just shook my head and said no there was no way I was going to consider giving away a stage no matter how much he was willing to pay me and there was no more talking about it. That was it.

 

[D-Queued]

The 'favours' thing is most transparent in 'Overcoming'. It is strongly alluded to that Armstrong gives the win to Basso for his mother and then the next day Basso gives the stage to Armstrong as a favour, with Bjarne *****ing.

Yes, it is pretty blatant in the film.

Also, there were more than a few 'rumors' about fixing the Triple Crown win.

Dave.

 

[Mambo95]

A Vuelta stage is a big race'.

To my mind, not particularly. Not to someone riding for GC on a big team like Liquigas like Kreuziger was. They have bigger fish to fry.

 

[Sanitiser]

So it still does happen. How is not a Vuelta stage win not a big deal?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

To my mind, not particularly. Not to someone riding for GC on a big team like Liquigas like Kreuziger was. They have bigger fish to fry.

If it wasn't such a big deal for Kreuziger or Liquigas why make the offer then?

Here is what Simoni said of Basso in the 2006 Giro

"At five kilometres from the finish, he came alongside me and asked for money to give me the stage win".

Or a 2009 Tour de France stage?

With 50 kms to go, Bennati came up to me and said: "You're going to have to pay me a lot of money if you want to win this stage or you will never win, because I will chase you down. There's no way you're going anywhere without me."

 

[Mambo95]

If it wasn't such a big deal for Kreuziger or Liquigas why make the offer then?

Ok, I misread the quote. However, when I posted I genuinely wasn't thinking about GT stages (Really, I wasn't. I was thinking of bigger things such as classics and other big one day races.)


(I would note that in neither of your examples was deal actually struck. Of course, everyone has their price though).

 

[Darryl Webster]

Couple of personal examples of "match fixing"..cus thats exactly what it is.

At a an international track meet at Leicester ( my home town) an Individual Persuit match was hastily arranged at the request of a Swiss rider and I was asked to be the oponent ( reigning British Persuit Champ at the time).
There was a catch..I was to lose.
Well the start fee was handy so I agreed....but somewhere during the ride I kinda changed my mind and won. This was my home crowd FFS!
Didnt go down well with the organiser but made a few " in the know" officials laugh !..

2nd example was a Pro Am Gp...away in a two man brake with a Commenwealth games champ and my DS comes alongside and tells me to ensure the result or I`ve gotta sit on. Quick chat with my breakaway companion he agrees to throw the sprint, I dont sit on, we stay away..agreement is kept.
It aint pretty realy...yet in cycling it`s hardly frowned upon.
I wonder what the betting shops think?

 

[theswordsman]

In the paper presented at the New Pathways Conference last Fall, Australian riders talked about guys in the breakaway buying and selling stage wins.
http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

 

[Sanitiser]

In the paper presented at the New Pathways Conference last Fall, Australian riders talked about guys in the breakaway buying and selling stage wins.
http://www.newcyclingpathway.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/21-NOW-FINAL-.pdf

Really informative. Thanks

For auscyclfan and on the same sort of tract

Q: Somebody said to us you can’t win the Tour without friends.
A: Absolutely not possible and that has been Cadel’s biggest problem too; not
having enough friends. It is a fact of life. He hasn’t gone out of his way to make
friends. Phil Anderson was the same. He could have had five times the amount of
victories that he had. If you look at the results, go and look on cycling.com and
look at all the classics and go through classics season. Have a look at the past.
Some of them give top threes from the seventies and the eighties, not just the
winner. Have a look how many placing Phil Anderson got. Every single classic
he run top five over and over again. He only won Amstel Gold Race and
something else because he was never allowed to win. He just didn’t have enough
friends, yet he was there every race. Cadel is much the same. He is good enough
to be there but his internal politics haven’t been good enough. So many people
want him to not win compared to - he has respect and deserves to win, which
makes his worlds victory even greater because he just smashed them. He was the
best and good on him. Hopefully it will give him a bit more respect.

lol

 

[online-rider]

It's one of the great ironies that in cycling, buying off an opponent was all part of the game. In football it's called 'match-fixing'...

I can't see any irony in that. But still its interesting, I geuss many of the riders who started it all back in the 1890s were such poor b*st*rds its understandable that they took the money wherever it came from.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There's a lot of 'favours' going around. Always has been, always will be.

To whit:

After the Angliru stage of the 2008 Vuelta, the next stage featured a mountaintop finish at the Puerto de San Isidro. Contador and Valverde had struck a deal to work together and that Valverde would get the win since he'd cracked on Angliru when the two (and Joaquím Rodríguez) had left everybody behind, and having given up over 3 minutes due to a tactical error on a flat stage Valverde was no GC threat to Contador. However, the attacks of Mosquera broke Valverde again, so Contador and Leipheimer just sat on Mosquera's wheel until about 200m to go before popping out for the win and greatly upsetting Xaco's team brass.

In the 2010 Giro, Nibali, Basso and Scarponi were the front group coming to the Aprica. But the chasing group - including the maglia rosa of David Arroyo - was getting closer thanks to Arroyo's incredible descending. Basso offered Scarponi the stage win in exchange for doing a share of the work - a very shrewd move because it offered Scarponi the carrot of a position on the podium as well as a stage win, whereas Basso also knew that Scarponi would outsprint him and Nibali to the line anyway, so it would be better to have three workers and let Scarponi win (and him get the maglia rosa) than have two workers, have Scarponi win anyway (and him possibly not get the maglia rosa).

Cobblestoned is absolutely adamant that Milram bought Fabian Wegmann's win at the Frankfurt Maitagrennen last year but since that came out of a sprint of a group of 25, there were something like 10 or 11 teams represented in that group, and would have required quite some expenditure for a cash-strapped team.

And of course, Valverde offered Sylwester Szmyd the victory on Mont Ventoux in the Dauphiné in exchange for helping him get the yellow jersey. And Valverde was true to his word, even though he practically had to stop and wait for the Pole in the last hundred metres.

 

[Black-Balled]

It's one of the great ironies that in cycling, buying off an opponent was all part of the game. In football it's called 'match-fixing'...

that is certainly not the case all the time.

often there is a gentleman's agreement where a designated winner will agree to give helpers a financial incentive to contribute to his win.

I'dadd that it likely happens in all sports where there is only one 'winner'.

In billiards, it is called a 'saver'.

 

[bobbins]

There's a great story about Dirk De Wolfs Liege Bastogne Liege victory that covers most bases as fas as pay offs go.

 

[Matthijs]

There's a lot of 'favours' going around. Always has been, always will be.

To whit:

After the Angliru stage of the 2008 Vuelta, the next stage featured a mountaintop finish at the Puerto de San Isidro. Contador and Valverde had struck a deal to work together and that Valverde would get the win since he'd cracked on Angliru when the two (and Joaquím Rodríguez) had left everybody behind, and having given up over 3 minutes due to a tactical error on a flat stage Valverde was no GC threat to Contador. However, the attacks of Mosquera broke Valverde again, so Contador and Leipheimer just sat on Mosquera's wheel until about 200m to go before popping out for the win and greatly upsetting Xaco's team brass.

In the 2010 Giro, Nibali, Basso and Scarponi were the front group coming to the Aprica. But the chasing group - including the maglia rosa of David Arroyo - was getting closer thanks to Arroyo's incredible descending. Basso offered Scarponi the stage win in exchange for doing a share of the work - a very shrewd move because it offered Scarponi the carrot of a position on the podium as well as a stage win, whereas Basso also knew that Scarponi would outsprint him and Nibali to the line anyway, so it would be better to have three workers and let Scarponi win (and him get the maglia rosa) than have two workers, have Scarponi win anyway (and him possibly not get the maglia rosa).

Cobblestoned is absolutely adamant that Milram bought Fabian Wegmann's win at the Frankfurt Maitagrennen last year but since that came out of a sprint of a group of 25, there were something like 10 or 11 teams represented in that group, and would have required quite some expenditure for a cash-strapped team.

And of course, Valverde offered Sylwester Szmyd the victory on Mont Ventoux in the Dauphiné in exchange for helping him get the yellow jersey. And Valverde was true to his word, even though he practically had to stop and wait for the Pole in the last hundred metres.

In my opinion: working together for different goals (usual GC and stage) is something really different then buying with money of favours at other races.

"Q: Somebody said to us you can’t win the Tour without friends.
A: Absolutely not possible and that has been Cadel’s biggest problem too; not
having enough friends. It is a fact of life. He hasn’t gone out of his way to make
friends. Phil Anderson was the same. He could have had five times the amount of
victories that he had. If you look at the results, go and look on cycling.com and
look at all the classics and go through classics season. Have a look at the past.
Some of them give top threes from the seventies and the eighties, not just the
winner. Have a look how many placing Phil Anderson got. Every single classic
he run top five over and over again. He only won Amstel Gold Race and
something else because he was never allowed to win. He just didn’t have enough
friends, yet he was there every race. Cadel is much the same. He is good enough
to be there but his internal politics haven’t been good enough. So many people
want him to not win compared to - he has respect and deserves to win, which
makes his worlds victory even greater because he just smashed them. He was the
best and good on him. Hopefully it will give him a bit more respect. "

Ha, now I finally understand why Boogerd did not win 2x LBL and 3 times Lombardia (and AGR 5 times instead of just 1). Not because his jump wasn't good enough, or tactical skills, or better opponents. The others where all corrupt...