Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[tobydawq]

Before I joined this forum I thought I was a huge fan of lists and rating compared to most other people but here I find myself time and time again wondering what you are talking about. Some riders cannot be compared to each other. It's apples and pears. And sometimes there is no "true level" in comparison to which people underperformed or overperformed. Sagan has been an exciting rider, skilled, versatile, a charismatic character, a winner of many races, an athlete on the biggest stages of road cycling for many years. In my opinion that's his legacy and all these attempts at trying to figure out his "real" position in the history of cycling are doomed.

No, he's second behind Merckx.

 

[tobydawq]

I have watched the exponential increase in race related video.. I could have written Sagan's I am quitting press release after I saw him talk about the puzzle that is long Covid and old age.. Looked at race and training volume for a bunch of riders.. including Valvarde as he exited..Sagan is not a victim.. He should have looked to be more innovative with marketing and leaned on mountain bike racing a while ago to try and shake things up.. or shake things out.. Each interview.. each article written you can see and hear his mounting frustration.
In my opinion his career is a bit of a firecracker.. He was a newer rider when he won in Philadelphia..2013,14? And was the biggest draw at the Tour of California..Super popular in English speaking countries.. Don't know that things could have gone any better for him..Tour results and won worlds with flair.. I hope that he can fade without saying or doing something bitter.. Is there a formula for a thirty something to race less and win more? I don't think so.. but Sagan doesn't have much snap left in my opinion.. Great racer but just is a little flat..

You see CyclistAbi and his untimely dot and raise him with the untimely double dot!

 

[Extinction]

Before I joined this forum I thought I was a huge fan of lists and rating compared to most other people but here I find myself time and time again wondering what you are talking about. Some riders cannot be compared to each other. It's apples and pears. And sometimes there is no "true level" in comparison to which people underperformed or overperformed. Sagan has been an exciting rider, skilled, versatile, a charismatic character, a winner of many races, an athlete on the biggest stages of road cycling for many years. In my opinion that's his legacy and all these attempts at trying to figure out his "real" position in the history of cycling are doomed.

I don't think anyone would argue with that, but when it comes to potential vs results, he should have had say 3 Flanders and 3 Roubaixs and a couple of San Remos. That he didn't was evidently destiny, however, it's like man with your class how did you not?

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I imagine peak-Sagan would’ve won a lot more if his era was more similar to the last 3-4 years where the dominating riders are like MVDP, WVA and Alaphilippe are willing to ride and where the classics often ends up with a man on man with the best riders the last 40-50 km. During his peak it feels like half the classics was won by some strange move where QuickStep sent one of their dudes away far from the finish and Sagan was beaten because riders like GVA would rather sit on his wheel to make them all lose than to ride like MVDP or WVA would’ve done nowadays…

 

[Panda Claws]

Were there actually that many years were Sagan was clearly the best in RVV/PR?

2011 - Obviously not.
2012 - Nope.
2013 - Cancellara was much stronger.
2014 - Strong in PR to be fair.
2015 - Not really.
2016 - Won RVV and was good in PR but not on another level imo
2017 - Was pretty good in RVV before he fell but not on another level. Missed crucial break in PR
2018 - Don't remember his RVV but he did win PR.
2019 - Bettiol surprised everyone. He was good in PR but not on another level.
2020 - Nope.
2021 - Nope.
2022 - Nope.

 

[memyselfandI]

Just my opinion but I think he got wounded mentally so badly when got divorced and after that his sports career took downward trend. On tv, it looked like under his skin his heart is really broken and sore and he's kinda almost fed up with his high life and struggled to be the best Peter of cycling. I know it sounds really dramatic, but there was never that spark in his eyes after that. After all the spark is the most important thing.

 

[tobydawq]

I imagine peak-Sagan would’ve won a lot more if his era was more similar to the last 3-4 years where the dominating riders are like MVDP, WVA and Alaphilippe are willing to ride and where the classics often ends up with a man on man with the best riders the last 40-50 km. During his peak it feels like half the classics was won by some strange move where QuickStep sent one of their dudes away far from the finish and Sagan was beaten because riders like GVA would rather sit on his wheel to make them all lose than to ride like MVDP or WVA would’ve done nowadays…

The biggest myth from the Sagan era is that Van Avermaet wouldn't collaborate with him.

Sometimes my mind just blows when I read stuff like that. I guess Van Avermaet is even more undervalued than Van Aert on this forum if such a thing is even possible.

 

[tobydawq]

Were there actually that many years were Sagan was clearly the best in RVV/PR?

2011 - Obviously not.
2012 - Nope.
2013 - Cancellara was much stronger.
2014 - Strong in PR to be fair.
2015 - Not really.
2016 - Won RVV and was good in PR but not on another level imo
2017 - Was pretty good in RVV before he fell but not on another level. Missed crucial break in PR
2018 - Don't remember his RVV but he did win PR.
2019 - Bettiol surprised everyone. He was good in PR but not on another level.
2020 - Nope.
2021 - Nope.
2022 - Nope.

In 2017 PR he punctured TWICE while on the attack.

That takes the top off most people.

In 2018 RVV, he attacked over the Paterberg and got away but couldn't catch neither Pedersen nor Terpstra.

 

[Sciatic]

I don't think anyone would argue with that, but when it comes to potential vs results, he should have had say 3 Flanders and 3 Roubaixs and a couple of San Remos. That he didn't was evidently destiny, however, it's like man with your class how did you not?

I know what folks mean about “could have done more” but looking at his career as he reaches the end, his achievements are prolific and amazing, especially as a classics rider:
3x Worlds
2 Monuments
3x Gent
3x Montreal
KBK
E3
Brabantse

and of course, he also won a Grand Tour . . . of California

 

[tobydawq]

I know what folks mean about “could have done more” but looking at his career as he reaches the end, his achievements are prolific and amazing, especially as a classics rider:
3x Worlds
2 Monuments
3x Gent
3x Montreal
KBK
E3
Brabantse

and of course, he also won a Grand Tour . . . of California

3x Montreal?

But yeah, then of course seven green jerseys and 18 Tour de Suisse stages also are meaningful records, of course especially the former.

But 10 years ago it seemed impossible that he would never win MSR, Strade and Amstel.

His three WCRR wins obviously salvage a lot but I do agree why some people say he has been underachieving.

 

[Sciatic]

3x Montreal?

But yeah, then of course seven green jerseys and 18 Tour de Suisse stages also are meaningful records, of course especially the former.

But 10 years ago it seemed impossible that he would never win MSR, Strade and Amstel.

His three WCRR wins obviously salvage a lot but I do agree why some people say he has been underachieving.

I understand and pretty much agree. For me, I can get engaged in discussions about riders (or any athletes) reaching their potential or getting more out of their careers while they are still at the top of their sport,, because it’s possible for them to change things, and interesting to try to problem solve from afar. And we can see if they did make changes, and see if they worked. There are plenty of discussions on the forum of that sort. But once a rider has reached the end of the career (which Sagan had even before this announcement), I find it much more interesting to look at what they DID accomplish.

 

[Keram]

Just my opinion but I think he got wounded mentally so badly when got divorced and after that his sports career took downward trend. On tv, it looked like under his skin his heart is really broken and sore and he's kinda almost fed up with his high life and struggled to be the best Peter of cycling. I know it sounds really dramatic, but there was never that spark in his eyes after that. After all the spark is the most important thing.

I would definitely not rule out that but probably his career got downward when he crashed at Tour 2018. This two things happened almost in same time. Anyway. He got divorced when his son was barely one year old. It definitely hurt him mentally.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

I would definitely not rule out that but probably his career got downward when he crashed at Tour 2018. This two things happened almost in same time. Anyway. He got divorced when his son was barely one year old. It definitely hurt him mentally.

It's definitely not only the crash though. The year after it, he was still good enough for another stage win and green jersey at the Tour plus top-fives at Sanremo, Roubaix and the Worlds. Even that level seems far away now. At most, the crash brought the onset of his decline forward, IMO.

 

[Oldermanish]

Okay, it wasn't as if Froome and G didn't contribute just as much as Sagan that day...

They tried to contribute. As Obi-Wan said: "there is no try. There is only do." They did not win. Watch it again and see them spend more time trying not to gap off....
In any case: Winning 3 consecutive World titles while being the most marked rider and winning Paris Roubaix under the same circumstances certainly qualify him as Sprinter and Winner of a Generation.

 

[Oldermanish]

No, he's second behind Merckx.

Everyone is. Everyone will likely always be.
My guess is Peter would agree.

 

[Sandisfan]

Just my opinion but I think he got wounded mentally so badly when got divorced and after that his sports career took downward trend. On tv, it looked like under his skin his heart is really broken and sore and he's kinda almost fed up with his high life and struggled to be the best Peter of cycling. I know it sounds really dramatic, but there was never that spark in his eyes after that. After all the spark is the most important thing.

I would definitely not rule out that but probably his career got downward when he crashed at Tour 2018. This two things happened almost in same time. Anyway. He got divorced when his son was barely one year old. It definitely hurt him mentally.

@Keram I have been of the the opinion that the crash at the Tour was where he lost some power. The bruise he must have gotten, I would think could damage his muscle and take away some strength. If you were to chart his wins rate after that I believe the wins rate plummeted after. I do think that with both the divorce and the Crash near to one another his motivation could have been reduced.
It was a fun career to watch and I just wish he had gotten a couple more monuments but like has been said he was marked. If the quickstep boss had wanted him after Boonen I think he could have gotten more big wins in his career. I think having no teammates in the World Championships actually helped him for at least those particular races.

 

[gregrowlerson]

You see CyclistAbi and his untimely dot and raise him with the untimely double dot!

Unchained: "Hold my slab."
CyclistAbi: "We'll see."

 

[RedheadDane]

You see CyclistAbi and his untimely dot and raise him with the untimely double dot!

I think it's a well-established fact that you're the person with the ultimate Dot!

 

[tobydawq]

I think it's a well-established fact that you're the person with the ultimate Dot!

You can just dot off...

 

[ij74]

sprinter than Sagan

I disagree. Peak Sagan was certainly better sprinter than Aert...

 

[Extinction]

I disagree. Peak Sagan was certainly better sprinter than Aert...

No, because Van Aert could win the coveted Champs Ellisse sprint, the sprint of all sprints.

 

[ij74]

No, because Van Aert could win the coveted Champs Ellisse sprint, the sprint of all sprints.

Back in days, peak Sagan was racing there with peak Cavendish, Kittel or Greipel. The competition that van Aert successfully faced in 2021 is nowhere near this.

 

[Blanco]

Is he still greater than Pogacar?

For me, he still is... But not by much, and I guess not for long...

 

[Extinction]

Back in days, peak Sagan was racing there with peak Cavendish, Kittel or Greipel. The competition that van Aert successfully faced in 2021 is nowhere near this.

I'll give you that, but still think Van Aert is a faster finisher in a field sprint, and he has more duties at the Tour, like winning the double Ventoux and breaking Pogacar in the Pyrennes, not to mention going for wins in the TTs too. Imagine if he weren't so versitile and only focussed on the sprints.

 

[tobydawq]

Back in days, peak Sagan was racing there with peak Cavendish, Kittel or Greipel. The competition that van Aert successfully faced in 2021 is nowhere near this.

He never beat Kittel or Cavendish in a Tour sprint (and won the stage), and Greipel only once...