Rasmussen wannabes

[MBotero]

So "marginal gains", ok i got it train better,optimize nutrition,use your own pillow,don't forget to wash your hands,better bike position,better bikes,better drugs(hopefully undetected) but i don't understand this anorexic thing.It doesn't look healthy and if you watched guys like Armstrong,Ullrich,Vinokourov you got the feeling that weight is not such a big deal.

 

[doperhopper]

So "marginal gains", ok i got it train better,optimize nutrition,use your own pillow,don't forget to wash your hands,better bike position,better bikes,better drugs(hopefully undetected) but i don't understand this anorexic thing.It doesn't look healthy and if you watched guys like Armstrong,Ullrich,Vinokourov you got the feeling that weight is not such a big deal.

c'mon bro - obviously, if you're turbocharged, breathing like vaccuum cleaner, having enough watts to attack over and over, few more kilos are much less a problem than now, without Edgar, just on marginal bloodbags or whatever

 

[MBotero]

c'mon bro - obviously, if you're turbocharged, breathing like vaccuum cleaner, having enough watts to attack over and over, few more kilos are much less a problem than now, without Edgar, just on marginal bloodbags or whatever

That is true if you believe that now they dope less,which i don't think so.

 

[SundayRider]

So "marginal gains", ok i got it train better,optimize nutrition,use your own pillow,don't forget to wash your hands,better bike position,better bikes,better drugs(hopefully undetected) but i don't understand this anorexic thing.It doesn't look healthy and if you watched guys like Armstrong,Ullrich,Vinokourov you got the feeling that weight is not such a big deal.

Armstrong may have looked more healthy, but he was a fair bit shorter than the likes of Froome/Wiggo/Schlecks et al so doesn't appear as thin. Look at pictures of Tyler Hamilton - Michele Ferrari was obsessed with weight he says as much in his book.

 

[GuyIncognito]

So "marginal gains", ok i got it train better,optimize nutrition,use your own pillow,don't forget to wash your hands,better bike position,better bikes,better drugs(hopefully undetected) but i don't understand this anorexic thing.It doesn't look healthy and if you watched guys like Armstrong,Ullrich,Vinokourov you got the feeling that weight is not such a big deal.

EPO skews the field massively toward muscular riders. Before EPO, find me a climber that was as muscular as those guys?

Before working with Ferrari, Armstrong couldn't climb for toffee. Udo Bolts blatantly said that EPO made Ullrich go from dropped by sprinters to 'flying up climbs'
Lucho Herrera even pointed it out as the reason he retired when EPO came along. 'Riders with fat asses started climbing like aeroplanes'

 

[Red Rick]

EPO skews the field massively toward muscular riders. Before EPO, find me a climber that was as muscular as those guys?

Could you explain why? just curious

 

[DirtyWorks]

..but i don't understand this anorexic thing.It doesn't look healthy and if you watched guys like Armstrong,Ullrich,Vinokourov you got the feeling that weight is not such a big deal.

Different drugs, different tests.

Or, maybe the Alan Lim beetroot juice and/or gluten free does something that never happened before in the 75+ years of cycling. Since we now know Lim was another beard, then not a "pan y agua" state.

Have there been "skinny" racers? Sure. Rasmussen is a decent example if it weren't for all the doping with Leinders that got him into the GC lead.

Skinny racers with the same field dominating power for months at a time? No. Not even close.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

EPO skews the field massively toward muscular riders. Before EPO, find me a climber that was as muscular as those guys?

EPO skews the field towards high cadence.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Could you explain why? just curious

Past a certain amount of muscle you can't oxygenate it for long efforts so it's mostly useless for long efforts such as mountain climbing or time trials. They're only relevant for short anaerobic efforts. It's having a huge engine and not enough fuel flow going in.

But if you have huge lung capacity, you can jack your hct to massive levels with EPO so that enough of the oxygen can be carried to the muscles to the point that you can use them in long efforts.

It came to the point where in the 90s teams went out of their way to find guys with high oxygen capacity, dense muscles and low natural hct. A guy with tons of muscle such as Ullrich, Induráin or Armstrong suddenly had not only the power, but also the fuel delivery system to use that power for hours at a time.

The extreme case was circa 1994 when a guy came along who was light enough to be a natural climber, but also very muscular (Roberto Pregnolato called him the most densely muscled athlete he ever worked with) and EPO elevated him to the living legend known as Marco Pantani

 

[42x16ss]

Past a certain amount of muscle you can't oxygenate it for long efforts so it's mostly useless for long efforts such as mountain climbing or time trials. They're only relevant for short anaerobic efforts. It's having a huge engine and not enough fuel flow going in.

But if you have huge lung capacity, you can jack your hct to massive levels with EPO so that enough of the oxygen can be carried to the muscles to the point that you can use them in long efforts.

It came to the point where in the 90s teams went out of their way to find guys with high oxygen capacity, dense muscles and low natural hct. A guy with tons of muscle such as Ullrich, Induráin or Armstrong suddenly had not only the power, but also the fuel delivery system to use that power for hours at a time.

The extreme case was circa 1994 when a guy came along who was light enough to be a natural climber, but also very muscular (Roberto Pregnolato called him the most densely muscled athlete he ever worked with) and EPO elevated him to the living legend known as Marco Pantani

TBF Pantani WAS a natural climber, look at his junior and U23 results. EPO just turned him into cyclings equivalent of the scud missile. Natural talent + massive response potential =

 

[nevada]

Didn't boardman also have dense muscles ?

 

[GuyIncognito]

TBF Pantani WAS a natural climber, look at his junior and U23 results. EPO just turned him into cyclings equivalent of the scud missile. Natural talent + massive response potential =

Pretty sure that's exactly what I said

 

[Nathan12]

Pretty sure that's exactly what I said

According to Rendell's book, it's possible that Pantani was blood doping even as an amateur.

 

[Dr. Juice]

According to Rendell's book, it's possible that Pantani was blood doping even as an amateur.

Unlikely. He had a huge natural talent, stated by many many persons who worked with him in younger years up until Carrera time.
He won the baby Giro d'italia in 1992.
After a disappointing first season as a pro in 1993 (likely clean and understanding what it "takes" to compete at the front) he said to Davide Cassani and some others: If I don't make it next year, I'm going back to sell " Piadinas" in my town. Make it or brake it. I think we can assume thats when he started juicing.

 

[nomapnocompass]

Unlikely. He had a huge natural talent

- Sorry we don't know that. Matt Rendell's book is a definitive account of Pantani's career, mainly because the analysis is very thorough and objective. There is extremely strong evidence there that Pantani doped from an amateur level and from then on, when he did dope, it was too excess. Some of the haematocrit levels in the medical records are genuinely shocking.

 

[Dr. Juice]

Do you think EPO was widespread among amateurs in 1990-1992 already? the general opinion is that even in pro cycling, only certain doctors fueled their horses with EPO from 1990-1993. And then in 1994 organised team doping started ( Gewiss and other teams following).

 

[jens_attacks]

even in rendell's book, pantani starts epo in 1993...
he climbed like a god already as a junior. of course he charged as an amateur but with classic things not epo.

 

[Eshnar]

Can we avoid starting another Pantani thread, please?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Can we avoid starting another Pantani thread, please?

He is the best there was so no escaping from him

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Vinos weight was just under 70 and the end of his career, and he was visibly heavier built at the time compared to Vuelta 06 for example. Ullrich and Armstrong too wasn't really heavy guys. Froome has taken it to another level though

 

[Netserk]

Armstrong admitted he never raced at 72kg or lower, so he was quite heavy.

edit: and he is what, about the same height as Alberto? Yet more than 10kg heavier...

 

[GuyIncognito]

According to Rendell's book, it's possible that Pantani was blood doping even as an amateur.

It's a possibility

 

[DirtyWorks]

Do you think EPO was widespread among amateurs in 1990-1992 already? the general opinion is that even in pro cycling, only certain doctors fueled their horses with EPO from 1990-1993. And then in 1994 organised team doping started ( Gewiss and other teams following).

http://www2.iaaf.org/TheSport/Science/NSA15_1/Bibliography.html

1987 Recombinant EPO is first available in Europe.

1987-1990 A number of deaths of competitive Dutch and Belgian cyclists is linked to EPO use (see Gambrell/Lombardo, ch. 1; Rossi et al., ch. 1; Deacon/Gains, ch. 3).

1988 Fédération Internationale de Ski (FIS) classifies EPO as a doping substance.

Not even 12 months passed before an athlete likely died from too thick blood. I recall reading about the Dutch deaths at the time in the elite amateur ranks, not pros. Does that mean it made it to Italy? Probably, as Conconi and his assistants Ferrari and ??? were on the leading edge of doping at the time. We know it made it to Spain very shortly after 1987.

BTW Hein Verbruggen, President at the time, did not lift a finger to control the spread of the drug, or communicate the dangers of it. Nothing. Evidence suggests they knew about it very shortly after introduction as evidenced by the FIS ban.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Different drugs, different tests.

Or, maybe the Alan Lim beetroot juice and/or gluten free does something that never happened before in the 75+ years of cycling. Since we now know Lim was another beard, then not a "pan y agua" state.

Have there been "skinny" racers? Sure. Rasmussen is a decent example if it weren't for all the doping with Leinders that got him into the GC lead.

Skinny racers with the same field dominating power for months at a time? No. Not even close.

LOL, I remember the gluten-free stuff Vandevelde was peddling back in the day when he finished 3rd at the TdF. Hilarious. Then came beetroot juice.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Vinos weight was just under 70 and the end of his career, and he was visibly heavier built at the time compared to Vuelta 06 for example. Ullrich and Armstrong too wasn't really heavy guys. Froome has taken it to another level though

Armstrong you've been told above.
Ullrich was weighed at 80kg at the 2005 pre-Tour medical check