Reticulocytes indicating blood doping?

[A moron]

Last week germany's Claudia Pechstein (ice skating) got a 2 year ban for blood doping. She's the first one to receive a ban on the blood passport!

An expert in TV said she had a 1.2% reticulocytes in her blood, clearly indicating the use uf PED's... No one could ever achieve 1.2% without PED's he said, if I understood correctly

Does anyone know whether that is true?

PS: Had a look on Bassos numbers... He had 1.49% before the Giro

 

[Cobblestones]

Last week germany's Claudia Pechstein (ice skating) got a 2 year ban for blood doping. She's the first one to receive a ban on the blood passport!

An expert in TV said she had a 1.2% reticulocytes in her blood, clearly indicating the use uf PED's... No one could ever achieve 1.2% without PED's he said, if I understood correctly

Does anyone know whether that is true?

PS: Had a look on Bassos numbers... He had 1.49% before the Giro

Haha, I was just about to post in the 'Phil the shill' thread that the multiple tests of Armstrong might indicate they're counting reticulocytes.

ETA: Here's a primer on reticulocytes.

Basically taking EPO-like products will increase the count, taking transfusions will decrease it.

ETA (2): Is there any way to see the numbers in the blood passports? Are they published at some point?

 

[blackcat]

Haha, I was just about to post in the 'Phil the shill' thread that the multiple tests of Armstrong might indicate they're counting reticulocytes.

ETA: Here's a primer on reticulocytes.

Basically taking EPO-like products will increase the count, taking transfusions will decrease it.

ETA (2): Is there any way to see the numbers in the blood passports? Are they published at some point?

the professional guys like Ashenden et al, gave CVV and DM the all clear.
http://www.bicycling.com/tourdefrance/article/0,6802,s1-7-483-17647-6,00.html
http://trustbut.blogspot.com/2008/08/blood-values-landis-garmin-and-that-485.html

But their retics got pretty low during the Tour, thought their off-score was not suspicious. However I think the anti=doping researchers have studied Basso before, and given him the all clear. I assume that they could keep the levels stable for hematocrit and hemoglobin, because it makes no sense, that in 99 Armstrong was coming in at 49, and now he comes in at 43, and has the same practical oxygen delivery capacity. It beggars belief.

 

[Cobblestones]

I assume that they could keep the levels stable for hematocrit and hemoglobin, because it makes no sense, that in 99 Armstrong was coming in at 49, and now he comes in at 43, and has the same practical oxygen delivery capacity. It beggars belief.

That's the conundrum, really. How is that possible?

 

[BigBoat]

Last week germany's Claudia Pechstein (ice skating) got a 2 year ban for blood doping. She's the first one to receive a ban on the blood passport!

An expert in TV said she had a 1.2% reticulocytes in her blood, clearly indicating the use uf PED's... No one could ever achieve 1.2% without PED's he said, if I understood correctly

Does anyone know whether that is true?

PS: Had a look on Bassos numbers... He had 1.49% before the Giro

Hayden, normal rectics are between .6 and 1.5 or so.

The reason that German woman was suspended was likely because she showed abnormal variation (high or low.) her rectics could have gone too high "above her norm" when micro-dosing epo to get it up after blood transfusions, and it could have "dropped to low" when she hadnt done this.

There is also a technique that allows one to freeze their blood (crypotpreservation) stored in a special solution and see minimal cell death so they dont have to use epo or shift their values at all. Its is how it was when the blood was "draw off."

 

[A moron]

Well, I got the numbers from Bassos page... -> mapeisport.it
you can register for free and have a look on his training and bloodtests...
First I was just interested in training, since he does a lot of similar things I used to do, though his Watt numbers are a bit different

However, I can't upload the pdf-file, here are just some numbers:
Hemoglobine: (taken from 6/2/09-17/5/09)
14.2-14.8-14.1-14.2-13.8-16(!!!)-15.4-15-14.4-13.7-13.5
Hematocrit:
42.5-43.1-42-41.1-41-47.1-44-42.7-41.4-42.8-40.8
Retics:
anything from 0.66 to 1.43 (tho mostly around 1)

But then, his pre-Giro Hematocrit is around 2.7 off-score and it says anything over 2.33 is "sospetto" (it.) which makes him a suspect, if I got that italian right...

I can tell from experience that my Hc-level was variable between 43.1 and 50.1% (I'm riding clean ) during racing it has usually been between 44 and 47... I could only reach 49 or more than 50 during winterbreak, which is considered normal!
I just cannot believe that Basso can suddenly reach a Hc-level of 47.1 right before the Giro (what a funny coincidence) when he was training very hard!

 

[BigBoat]

Well, I got the numbers from Bassos page... -> mapeisport.it

I just cannot believe that Basso can suddenly reach a Hc-level of 47.1 right before the Giro (what a funny coincidence) when he was training very hard!

Yeah...He chose to allow people see his crit rise. And he'll claim its from "altitude" or the "hypnoxic tent" which is a load of CRAP. If he can get to 47% out of competition he can jack to 56% right before the Giro with 600cc+ of packed red cells, and hemodilute back down to 47 with for his "controls."

 

[Bala Verde]

According to Bild she was suspended because her 'young red blood cells' (reticulocytes) exceeded the 2.4% upper limit, and was measured with 3.75% at one point. Source in dutch

Re Basso, I saw an article Source that he was training in/near El Teide, Tenerife, Spain, 3718 m above sea level.

Last thing I read is that it is also the place were a certain gyneacologist continued his gyneacologist business (Spanish wiki)

En estos momentos ejerce la medicina como ginecólogo en un ambulatorio del Servicio Canario de Salud situado en Gran Canaria, con un sueldo de 2.500 euros mensuales.

Curiosamente, coincidiendo con el retorno de Fuentes a las Islas Canarias se ha producido un aumento del número de deportistas de élite que realizan entrenamientos de preparación en dicho archipiélago (incluyendo antiguos clientes de Fuentes), sin que de momento haya trascendido la existencia de una relación directa entre estos hechos.

 

[BroDeal]

According to Bild she was suspended because her 'young red blood cells' (reticulocytes) exceeded the 2.4% upper limit, and was measured with 3.75% at one point. Source in dutch

Re Basso, I saw an article Source that he was training in/near El Teide, Tenerife, Spain, 3718 m above sea level.

Last thing I read is that it is also the place were a certain gyneacologist continued his gyneacologist business (Spanish wiki)

I thought Tenerife was where Fuentes had his main office, and it was never raided. Am I confused?

 

[BigBoat]

I thought Tenerife was where Fuentes had his main office, and it was never raided. Am I confused?

Yeah it was his Madrid office only I think.

 

[Bala Verde]

I think they raided a Madrid Lab as well as some of his properties (appartments) where they stored blood bags. He still holds office somewhere else in Gran Canaria. He is specialised in Gyneacology and Sports medicine, he is currently working as a Gyneacologist. However, who knows what he does with that other knowledge. What the article stated is that there had been an 'increase of athletes visiting the area' after he returned to work. He has been busy in the 'doping industry' for quite a while, almost 20 years, so it wouldn't surprise me if he has gone back to his old habits...

 

[elapid]

From Wikipedia: A recent, more sophisticated method of analysis, which has not yet reached the level of an official standard, is to compare the numbers of mature and immature RBCs in an athlete's circulation. If a high number of mature RBCs is not accompanied by a high number of immature RBCs—called reticulocytes--it suggests that the mature RBCs were artificially introduced by transfusion. EPO use can also lead to a similar RBC profile because a preponderance of mature RBCs tends to suppress the formation of reticulocytes. A measure known as the "stimulation index" or "off-score" has been proposed based on an equation involving hemoglobin and reticulocyte concentrations. A normal score is 85-95 and scores over 133 are considered evidence of doping. (The stimulation index is defined as Hb (g/L) minus sixty times the square root of the percentage of RBCs identified as reticulocytes.)

 

[Cobblestones]

From Wikipedia: A recent, more sophisticated method of analysis, which has not yet reached the level of an official standard, is to compare the numbers of mature and immature RBCs in an athlete's circulation. If a high number of mature RBCs is not accompanied by a high number of immature RBCs—called reticulocytes--it suggests that the mature RBCs were artificially introduced by transfusion. EPO use can also lead to a similar RBC profile because a preponderance of mature RBCs tends to suppress the formation of reticulocytes. A measure known as the "stimulation index" or "off-score" has been proposed based on an equation involving hemoglobin and reticulocyte concentrations. A normal score is 85-95 and scores over 133 are considered evidence of doping. (The stimulation index is defined as Hb (g/L) minus sixty times the square root of the percentage of RBCs identified as reticulocytes.)

I don't think the off score is all that useful, because it mostly picks up variations in RBC production. A constant microdosing of EPO-type products should keep it nice and steady within the limits. Moreover, would it be possible to avoid the reduced RBC production after a transfusion by a simultaneous large EPO dose? At least in the short term?