Scheduling of World Championships

[RedheadDane]

Now, of course this year everything was a bit wonky, what with first having some Road Races, then the various TTs and then more Road Races. However, in a normal year, how would you schedule the various races?
Let's get a little ahead here, and work with the U23 Women's category is already separate races, for a grand total of 13 races, counting the mixed team relay, held over 9 days.

The European Championships method of just having all the ITTs on the same day probably won't work.

 

[Netserk]

Make a poll.

 

[yaco]

First Sunday the Women's RR , then Monday the Mixed Relay TTT, Tuesday Junior mens and womens ITT, Wednesday the mens ITT and the under 23 mens ITT, Thursday the women's ITT, Friday Junior women and mens RR. Sat under23's mens RR and Sunday the mens elite.

 

[Ricco']

I think the scheduling of the World Championships is very good in the last iteration (in normal years), with the Men's ITT on the first sunday and the RR to finish it all.

What I don't like is this format of super championships. They try to do an Olympics style event, with everything taking place in the same time, but while that may work with the Olympics, with different publics looking forward to different sports, in cycling the audiences overlap significantly between disciplines and holding finals at the same time as the Road Races, which are the main focus of attention, is a good way to make sure that the media attention given to smaller events like track or MTB is way less that could be achieved if that races had their own moment without having to divide public with other discipline.

 

[Gigs_98]

I like the concept of first TTs then RRs, since I think the latter are the highlight of the whole event and serve as a grand finale. Also, switch whether the mens or the womens race is on Sunday every year so you have true equality between the two.

For the rest, should we only schedule the races that exist right now or also talk about what races should be included and which should not? I like the concept of national TTTs so I'm no opposed to the current mixed relay. That said, I wouldn't complain about two separate TTTs either.
Meanwhile just get rid of the U23 category entirely or at least make it something like U21. Everyone with half an eye can see the age at which riders become world class has decreased massively and so categories should decrease their age restrictions accordingly. There is literally no interest in watching U23 races for me because the only thing those races show me is which riders are kinda good but not talented enough to race with the pros already. I cannot celebrate the winner of a U23 race as a future star when I know there were 5 vastly superior riders in the actual WCRR who are the same age.

 

[Valanga]

I actually like having the Men's Elite RR at the beginning. Then we care from the start.

I like the concept of first TTs then RRs, since I think the latter are the highlight of the whole event and serve as a grand finale. Also, switch whether the mens or the womens race is on Sunday every year so you have true equality between the two.

For the rest, should we only schedule the races that exist right now or also talk about what races should be included and which should not? I like the concept of national TTTs so I'm no opposed to the current mixed relay. That said, I wouldn't complain about two separate TTTs either.
Meanwhile just get rid of the U23 category entirely or at least make it something like U21. Everyone with half an eye can see the age at which riders become world class has decreased massively and so categories should decrease their age restrictions accordingly. There is literally no interest in watching U23 races for me because the only thing those races show me is which riders are kinda good but not talented enough to race with the pros already. I cannot celebrate the winner of a U23 race as a future star when I know there were 5 vastly superior riders in the actual WCRR who are the same age.

On the other hand, having the Men's RR at the start makes sure it has our full attention from the start.
And more athletes will double in another category. MvdP might skip MTB XC if it was before the RR, or Wout skipping the ITT, ...

I fully agree on the U23 category though, just get rid of it...

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Meanwhile just get rid of the U23 category entirely or at least make it something like U21. Everyone with half an eye can see the age at which riders become world class has decreased massively and so categories should decrease their age restrictions accordingly. There is literally no interest in watching U23 races for me because the only thing those races show me is which riders are kinda good but not talented enough to race with the pros already. I cannot celebrate the winner of a U23 race as a future star when I know there were 5 vastly superior riders in the actual WCRR who are the same age.

The youngest rider to finish the WCRR this year was Kooij in 45th at 14 minutes, and even he would be in his last year as a U23 in the hypothetical scenario where he hadn't turned pro yet. So even a U21 limit would create a gap between eligibility for the highest youth category and being ready for the elites for most classic-type riders.

 

[Netserk]

Also, switch whether the mens or the womens race is on Sunday every year so you have true equality between the two.

Also alternate the slot of the Tour for the men and the women. We need true equality.

 

[Gigs_98]

The youngest rider to finish the WCRR this year was Kooij in 45th at 14 minutes, and even he would be in his last year as a U23 in the hypothetical scenario where he hadn't turned pro yet. So even a U21 limit would create a gap between eligibility for the highest youth category and being ready for the elites for most classic-type riders.

Well I don't think there is any harm if riders cannot immediately make the jump from dominating the young rider category to dominating against the elites. The important point is that whatever that young rider category is, I should be able to look at the winner and think, he was the best rider of their age group. Right now that's not the case, even on a real classics parcours like this year. As soon as the course becomes either remotely mountainous or one for proper sprinters that goes entirely out of the window.

 

[Gigs_98]

Also alternate the slot of the Tour for the men and the women. We need true equality.

Not entirely sure if that's sarcastic

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Well I don't think there is any harm if riders cannot immediately make the jump from dominating the young rider category to dominating against the elites. The important point is that whatever that young rider category is, I should be able to look at the winner and think, he was the best rider of their age group. Right now that's not the case, even on a real classics parcours like this year. As soon as the course becomes either remotely mountainous or one for proper sprinters that goes entirely out of the window.

There's a huge gap between dominating against the elites and being able to finish against the elites that you're glossing over here...

Also, both the U23 and the junior races have very frequently had seemingly random winners, especially in hindsight, because a) the races themselves are more open than in the elites and b) the development of riders themselves is unpredictable and lots of riders who looked fantastic as a junior and/or U23 have underwhelming pro careers. Having *** champions like Fedorov in the U23s last year has never been uncommon, it has little to do with young riders stepping it up more quickly in recent years.

 

[Red Rick]

It's basically impossible to make the u23 have better World Champions. I don't understand the problem people have with it. IMO I would bar riders who are in their 2nd WT season or more, and I would probably advocate for the u23 worlds to be much longer. Many of these guys have done much longer race. For u23 riders the WC doesn't even stand out in terms of distance, that's just dumb. Bump it up to 220 km or something. Same for the other road races. Only the Mens elite RR is actually appropriately long compared to the rest of their calendar.

 

[Gigs_98]

There's a huge gap between dominating against the elites and being able to finish against the elites that you're glossing over here...

Also, both the U23 and the junior races have very frequently had seemingly random winners, especially in hindsight, because a) the races themselves are more open than in the elites and b) the development of riders themselves is unpredictable and lots of riders who looked fantastic as a junior and/or U23 have underwhelming pro careers. Having *** champions like Fedorov in the U23s last year has never been uncommon, it has little to do with young riders stepping it up more quickly in recent years.

Well first of all, there were generally extremely few finishers, I don't know how many U23 riders started in the first place and there were 22 y.o. guys finishing the race like Skjelmose, who finished 14th. Some 21 y.o. being the youngest finisher really doesn't tell me much.

Also, while random guys popping up to win races does happen, do you think Fedorov wins last years race if Evenepoel is still riding in the U23 category? Because that's my point. You can go back through the last few world championships and every year there is a U23 rider popping up in the elite ranking who surely could have dominated at a lower level. That's what makes the U23 race irrelevant. Not weak winners per se.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

First of all there's nothing more I dislike than such a mega-event format.
This devalues and dilutes each discipline.
Which I think is particularly unfortunate this year with such beautiful surroundings we are witnessing.

Among people in general with a busy everyday life there are only a tiny subset able to spare entire 11 days in a row for world championships in each discipline and sub-discipline.

Hence you have to pic a few "main events" and leave the remains.

Which, of course, is a pity, both for the viewers and for the participants.

The road championships should be spread over a week with perhaps a maximum of 2 events on the same day (junior boys and elite women ITT / RR).

*edit* in my dreams: Road WC's 1-2 weeks past La Vuelta and before La Lombarda / Paris-Bourges.
Each discipline as a single prime-time telly event - i.e. prime time for WC host.
And, ofcourse the ITT's an TTT's first with RR's and elite men RR as grande finale as a corner stone to return to.

The Cykelcross WC would be nice as a January 1st hangover-thing (or maybe rather January 2nd, leaving Garmisch-Partenkirchen as the holy grail - some here may have feelings for skijumpers *edit* or rather a fixed recurring Limburg event on December 31th, lurking some guy willing to take some sharp corner exersizes with an Amstel Beer as reward? ).

The Track WC should preferably be around the winter holidays.

The MTB WC should be over a weekend in June before people are inspired to go on breakneck downhill holidays (so the insurance companies can make a living)

...and so on...

 

[Red Rick]

I like the concept of first TTs then RRs, since I think the latter are the highlight of the whole event and serve as a grand finale. Also, switch whether the mens or the womens race is on Sunday every year so you have true equality between the two.

For the rest, should we only schedule the races that exist right now or also talk about what races should be included and which should not? I like the concept of national TTTs so I'm no opposed to the current mixed relay. That said, I wouldn't complain about two separate TTTs either.
Meanwhile just get rid of the U23 category entirely or at least make it something like U21. Everyone with half an eye can see the age at which riders become world class has decreased massively and so categories should decrease their age restrictions accordingly. There is literally no interest in watching U23 races for me because the only thing those races show me is which riders are kinda good but not talented enough to race with the pros already. I cannot celebrate the winner of a U23 race as a future star when I know there were 5 vastly superior riders in the actual WCRR who are the same age.

The supposed elite talents get beaten hard at the u23 road race quite often. It isn't like they don't show up. Plus it devalues the competition. If a 19 year old impresses by getting top 3 in an u23 crowd, it won't be as impressive if he does it in an u23 crowd.

Also, the u23 WC is just a race, it's not supposed to be the WT draft. It's simply the bridge between Mens Elite and juniors, precisely because only very few can make the jump from immediately.

 

[Netserk]

Not entirely sure if that's sarcastic

I thought it was abundantly clear.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Well first of all, there were generally extremely few finishers, I don't know how many U23 riders started in the first place and there were 22 y.o. guys finishing the race like Skjelmose, who finished 14th. Some 21 y.o. being the youngest finisher really doesn't tell me much.

Skjelmose is born in 2000 and therefore too old for the U23 race regardless of anything else. In fact, Kooij was the only 2001-born (i.e. last-year U23-aged) finisher.

Also, while random guys popping up to win races does happen, do you think Fedorov wins last years race if Evenepoel is still riding in the U23 category? Because that's my point. You can go back through the last few world championships and every year there is a U23 rider popping up in the elite ranking who surely could have dominated at a lower level. That's what makes the U23 race irrelevant. Not weak winners per se.

Evenepoel is an extreme example even by the standards of this generation. If you base your decisions regarding the U23 category on him, you might as well do away with the category in general and have everyone jump straight from a junior team to a senior team. This year, there was nobody young enough in the elite race who would have been the outright favourite in the U23 race. Which perhaps tells us more than the achievements of one of the most particular cases this sport has ever seen.

 

[Ricco']

Well first of all, there were generally extremely few finishers, I don't know how many U23 riders started in the first place and there were 22 y.o. guys finishing the race like Skjelmose, who finished 14th. Some 21 y.o. being the youngest finisher really doesn't tell me much.

Also, while random guys popping up to win races does happen, do you think Fedorov wins last years race if Evenepoel is still riding in the U23 category? Because that's my point. You can go back through the last few world championships and every year there is a U23 rider popping up in the elite ranking who surely could have dominated at a lower level. That's what makes the U23 race irrelevant. Not weak winners per se.

Only 5 riders at the start would be eligible for the U23 race (Kooij, Sam Watson, Pithie, Vacek and Hessmann), of those only one finished.

Skjelmose will be 23 before the end of the year so he isn't eligible for the U23 race anymore.

And Vacek is for me a strange case as he wouldn't be a factor in any of the elite races while could be a contender for the podium in both the RR and ITT U23.

 

[Red Rick]

I thought it was abundantly clear.

Care to give an argument for why the womens race shouldn't be on a Sunday/

 

[Gigs_98]

I thought it was abundantly clear.

Well I thought it was. But comparing the timeslots of the WCRR with those of GTs is such a bad analogy that I couldn't possibly think you expected to make any sort of point with that remark.

Skjelmose is born in 2000 and therefore too old for the U23 race regardless of anything else. In fact, Kooij was the only 2001-born (i.e. last-year U23-aged) finisher.

Ah, I always mix these things up. Whatever.
I do still think we shouldn't emphasize too much on this years race. As I said, it was the worst possible route for young riders and just because there is still a clear gap between U23 and elites here doesn't mean the categorization stays the correct one if you move to a different course. I just don't think that in a cycling world where U23 riders are constantly fighting for GT stage wins and podiums they should still have a seperate WC category.

And also, if people don't think the U23 WC is supposed to be the place where we see the biggest talents of the future battle it out, then I simply disagree.

 

[Netserk]

Care to give an argument for why the womens race shouldn't be on a Sunday/

The prime spot is for the prime event. The men's road race is by far the singular most important event of the worlds.

 

[Netserk]

For the rest, should we only schedule the races that exist right now or also talk about what races should be included and which should not? I like the concept of national TTTs so I'm no opposed to the current mixed relay. That said, I wouldn't complain about two separate TTTs either.

In that case, remove the ITTs. Replace them with long TTTs. 100 km with four riders for the men, as per tradition. I guess about 80 km would be the equivalent for the women.

 

[King Boonen]

The prime spot is for the prime event. The men's road race is by far the singular most important event of the worlds.

I would argue that the prime spot is whichever has the biggest race (within reason obviously, both Elite RRs are on a Sunday). It doesn't matter if they have the men's race at the start of the champs or the end, that's still going to be the busiest and most watched.

 

[Red Rick]

And also, if people don't think the U23 WC is supposed to be the place where we see the biggest talents of the future battle it out, then I simply disagree.

You can't force it to be because you can't see the future. Besides there's been pretty good fields if you go down in the results of the u23 races apart from the winners. 2021 had Girmay and Kooij on the podium. 2019 had Pidcock, Higuita, Eenkoorn and Bissegger all up there. 2018 had Hirschi winning, with Lambrecht, Mäder, Pogacar, Padun and Hayter in there. 2017 had Cosnefroy beating Kämna.

The biggest talent will skip this category. That is unless you wanna make it WT status, put it after the Mens Elites and allow ME riders to do the U23 race after for the memes.

 

[tobydawq]

It's basically impossible to make the u23 have better World Champions. I don't understand the problem people have with it. IMO I would bar riders who are in their 2nd WT season or more, and I would probably advocate for the u23 worlds to be much longer. Many of these guys have done much longer race. For u23 riders the WC doesn't even stand out in terms of distance, that's just dumb. Bump it up to 220 km or something. Same for the other road races. Only the Mens elite RR is actually appropriately long compared to the rest of their calendar.

I would encourage all riders under the age of 23 to participate, whether or not they have already won five Grand Tours.

Otherwise, change the name.