Shimano Dura Ace 7850 50mm Carbon

[flat stick]

Shimano Dura Ace 7850 50mm Carbon wheelset do i go for Clincher or tubular? these would be used as race wheels only i like the idea of clinchers so i can reuse the tyres and tubes on training wheels as they get worn or would the tubulars be better the wheels would be used for crits and general road racing so need to be reliable i weigh 13 stone

 

[barn yard]

tubular for racing

 

[rgmerk]

It depends

I would have agreed with you until the last few weeks, but depending on what racing you do tubulars might not be practical.

One of the biggest races of our season is the "Three Day Tour" - like it sounds, a three-day, four stage race. Like a pro stage race, if you don't finish a stage, you don't get to start the next one. Unlike a pro race, we weren't guaranteed a spares vehicle, and all riders were instructed to bring repair kits.

Everybody ended up racing the tour on aluminium clinchers; my racing tubulars ended up sitting in the shed.

If I'd known this was going to be the case I'd have bought clinchers instead.

 

[Offtheback]

I would have agreed with you until the last few weeks, but depending on what racing you do tubulars might not be practical.

One of the biggest races of our season is the "Three Day Tour" - like it sounds, a three-day, four stage race. Like a pro stage race, if you don't finish a stage, you don't get to start the next one. Unlike a pro race, we weren't guaranteed a spares vehicle, and all riders were instructed to bring repair kits.

Everybody ended up racing the tour on aluminium clinchers; my racing tubulars ended up sitting in the shed.

If I'd known this was going to be the case I'd have bought clinchers instead.

Why couldn't you throw a spare tub on and inflate with a CO2? I could rip off a tub , replace it and be back on the bike in a much shorter time than replacing a clincher inner-tube in the old days. never had any trouble with the spare tub sticking. (Tube was folded and strapped under the saddle with an old toe-clip strap).

 

[rgmerk]

Why couldn't you throw a spare tub on and inflate with a CO2? I could rip off a tub , replace it and be back on the bike in a much shorter time than replacing a clincher inner-tube in the old days. never had any trouble with the spare tub sticking. (Tube was folded and strapped under the saddle with an old toe-clip strap).

I don't know how to get a glued, deflated tubular off a rim in a hurry. Furthermore, how in the heck am I supposed to practice it?

I suppose I could try slime.

But, overall, my experience with tubulars is that while they're great to ride on, but the hassles of the unfamiliar are barely worth the relatively minor handling benefits and marginally lower weight.

 

[Black Dog]

Go for the clinchers. The difference in ride quality and rolling resistance will not be large enough to show up in your performance in the races. Put in latex tubes and a high end clincher and you will be very , very close to the performance of a tubular. On an blind test you would never be able to tell the difference.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Go for the clinchers. The difference in ride quality and rolling resistance will not be large enough to show up in your performance in the races. Put in latex tubes and a high end clincher and you will be very , very close to the performance of a tubular. On an blind test you would never be able to tell the difference.

A) Are these wheels tubeless compatibles?
B) How are tubeless going to be in racing when it is more widespread?

 

[M Sport]

I have a set of Dura-Ace C50 Tubulars that you're contemplating, like you I only use them for racing.

I wouldn't for a moment consider racing on clinchers, the tubular version of these wheels is night and day better than the clincher version. When you accelerate in a sprint they really take off, much faster to spin up than a clincher version and ride quality is much better and faster. Like the other poster said, you can change a tubular in a race if you have to, but remember, if you have no spares car the race is already up the road and gone whether you're changing a tubular or a clincher.

Get the tubulars.

 

[Black Dog]

I have a set of Dura-Ace C50 Tubulars that you're contemplating, like you I only use them for racing.

I wouldn't for a moment consider racing on clinchers, the tubular version of these wheels is night and day better than the clincher version. When you accelerate in a sprint they really take off, much faster to spin up than a clincher version and ride quality is much better and faster. Like the other poster said, you can change a tubular in a race if you have to, but remember, if you have no spares car the race is already up the road and gone whether you're changing a tubular or a clincher.

Get the tubulars.

No offence but your claims are simply unfounded. The mass difference between the versions of the wheels is very small and there is no way that a human could detect the difference in rotational mass between the wheels. It will be a very small fraction of a percent. You have to consider the mass of the bike and the rider and the addition or subtraction of a 100 grams will not be perceptible no matter where you place than mass. This is simple physics. Also, all the RESEARCH shows that the difference in rolling resistance is also tiny and can go either way depending on the tires used (clincher or tubular). You are simply repeating marketing claims and old myths. Any perception you have of a difference is simply a result of preconception bias.

Tubulars are used because they reduce pinch flats, and are a bit more rideable after a puncture. However, there are serious tradeoffs in terms of maintenance and safety if they are not mounted properly.

 

[nightfend]

I'd buy the tubular wheels. With some rare exceptions, in general no one changes their own flats in races. So any convenience the clincher has is moot.

About the only reason you should choose the clinchers is if you plan to use the wheels for training rides as well.

 

[Night Rider]

No offence but your claims are simply unfounded. The mass difference between the versions of the wheels is very small and there is no way that a human could detect the difference in rotational mass between the wheels. It will be a very small fraction of a percent. You have to consider the mass of the bike and the rider and the addition or subtraction of a 100 grams will not be perceptible no matter where you place than mass. This is simple physics. Also, all the RESEARCH shows that the difference in rolling resistance is also tiny and can go either way depending on the tires used (clincher or tubular). You are simply repeating marketing claims and old myths. Any perception you have of a difference is simply a result of preconception bias.

Tubulars are used because they reduce pinch flats, and are a bit more rideable after a puncture. However, there are serious tradeoffs in terms of maintenance and safety if they are not mounted properly.

What an absolute load of b0ll0cks. The difference in rotating mass of the wheels is something like 10%, more if you factor in that the additional weight is at the rim, not the centre.

Go the tubulars. They make them for racing for a reason. They're better.

 

[Black Dog]

What an absolute load of b0ll0cks. The difference in rotating mass of the wheels is something like 10%, more if you factor in that the additional weight is at the rim, not the centre.

Go the tubulars. They make them for racing for a reason. They're better.

10% of what? Are you forgetting the mass of the rider and bike? Please be specific with your claims. 100 grams at the rims still does not have any real effect on acceleration when factored into the total mass of bike and rider. Also, your are forgetting wind resistance and its geometric effect on resisting acceleration. If you are talking about the wheels alone it does make a real difference. Do the math. No claim from any marketing department will ever invalidate the laws of physics. Also, saying it over and over again will also not make it true.

Tubulars are betting in some ways, however. Clincher technology has caught up. All the independent research shows this, as does the in house testing form the big tire makers.

 

[M Sport]

No offence but your claims are simply unfounded. The mass difference between the versions of the wheels is very small and there is no way that a human could detect the difference in rotational mass between the wheels. It will be a very small fraction of a percent. You have to consider the mass of the bike and the rider and the addition or subtraction of a 100 grams will not be perceptible no matter where you place than mass. This is simple physics. Also, all the RESEARCH shows that the difference in rolling resistance is also tiny and can go either way depending on the tires used (clincher or tubular). You are simply repeating marketing claims and old myths. Any perception you have of a difference is simply a result of preconception bias.

Tubulars are used because they reduce pinch flats, and are a bit more rideable after a puncture. However, there are serious tradeoffs in terms of maintenance and safety if they are not mounted properly.

When trying to pick apart someones post, please have a clue about what you're talking about. The difference in weight between the tubular version and clincher is around 270 grams, that additional weight is all at the outside edge of the rim (hubs and spokes are the same). So along the lines of what the other poster has tried to tell you, the weight difference is actually closer to 20%. The effect on rotating mass is very significant (do you understand what rotating mass is?)

In short 300 grams saved at the edge of the rear wheel, is worth massively more than 300 grams saved anywhere on the bike, your mention or rider and bike weight means nothing, we are comparing a clincher and a tubular version of the same wheel.

An anecdotal comment now, there is nothing in the world that would make me want to change from my tubular version of the wheel to the clincher when coming in to the finish straight sitting in the front group of riders ready to jump and sprint for the win, somehow from the tone of your posts I don't think you get to that position too often.

 

[Black Dog]

When trying to pick apart someones post, please have a clue about what you're talking about. The difference in weight between the tubular version and clincher is around 270 grams, that additional weight is all at the outside edge of the rim (hubs and spokes are the same). So along the lines of what the other poster has tried to tell you, the weight difference is actually closer to 20%. The effect on rotating mass is very significant (do you understand what rotating mass is?)

In short 300 grams saved at the edge of the rear wheel, is worth massively more than 300 grams saved anywhere on the bike, your mention or rider and bike weight means nothing, we are comparing a clincher and a tubular version of the same wheel.

An anecdotal comment now, there is nothing in the world that would make me want to change from my tubular version of the wheel to the clincher when coming in to the finish straight sitting in the front group of riders ready to jump and sprint for the win, somehow from the tone of your posts I don't think you get to that position too often.

I will be happy to admit that the mass difference is 270 grams. I was just tossing out an approximate number and I fully concede the point to you. However, it is still not that relevant a number; and yes I do know exactly what effect rotational mass has on acceleration. However, you can not ignore the total mass being accelerated when calculating the effect of an aggregate reduction in rotational mass. The rider and bike are being accelerated not just the wheels. As well, the net decrease in realized inertia from the reduction in rotational mass is much smaller at higher velocities due to the increasing resistance from wind which increases as a square of velocity. It is best from a standing stop and worst when kicking that last bit for the line.

I did not realize that my comments, somehow revealed my VO2 max and my max wattage. This kind of insight would have saved my national team some money spent on testing me when I raced with them. Seriously, I did not mean to offend you and I apologize for doing so. I crossed the yellow line. Sorry. The next round of Guinness is on me.

For the record I raced on tubulars.