Shoe choices

[LAREDOUTE]

I need some help and advice from the wise folk out there.I have been back on the bike for one year after a 25 year break (what was I thinking!)I started out with my old shoes,clips and straps.....attached to the old bike.I have updated bike-wise in a budget s/hand durace foco steel-frame kinda way.Being new to strapless pedals I bought a pair of Lake tri shoes and it is time to update. By the way I am talking about racing .Recently U.K.mag Cycling Plus tested Bont shoes (very pricey heat moulded)and claimed <after fitting the shoes properly,we found using a few gears higher than normal wasnt uncommon on our test rides> Shimano do a heat moulded shoe also I think.QUESTION IS do these shoes really make that much difference.I dont want to loose any of my hard won wattage!Any thoughts or comments appreciated.

 

[Pietro]

I need some help and advice from the wise folk out there.I have been back on the bike for one year after a 25 year break (what was I thinking!)I started out with my old shoes,clips and straps.....attached to the old bike.I have updated bike-wise in a budget s/hand durace foco steel-frame kinda way.Being new to strapless pedals I bought a pair of Lake tri shoes and it is time to update. By the way I am talking about racing .Recently U.K.mag Cycling Plus tested Bont shoes (very pricey heat moulded)and claimed <after fitting the shoes properly,we found using a few gears higher than normal wasnt uncommon on our test rides> Shimano do a heat moulded shoe also I think.QUESTION IS do these shoes really make that much difference.I dont want to loose any of my hard won wattage!Any thoughts or comments appreciated.

Like any shoe, comfort is the most important thing. No road shoe regardless of price point is going to make you add or lose much performance but if they have hot spots, give you blisters or are otherwise not comfortable, they will have a huge effect on your riding.

shimano shoes get high marks as do Sidi.

 

[BroDeal]

Recently U.K.mag Cycling Plus tested Bont shoes (very pricey heat moulded)and claimed <after fitting the shoes properly,we found using a few gears higher than normal wasnt uncommon on our test rides

Personally I would not buy a magazine that made such outrageously stupid claims in a review.

 

[DL9999]

Personally I would not buy a magazine that made such outrageously stupid claims in a review.

I wouldn't call any claim outrageously stupid unless I knew for a fact that it was incorrect.

The fact is that having correctly fitting shoes makes an enormous difference to how you feel on the bike. And it's not only comfort that affects how you ride: how securely your feet are held in the shoes is just as important. I don't find it implausible at all that if you switch from loose or otherwise badly fitting shoes to shoes with a perfect fit you might ride bigger gears.

 

[James Huang]

Yup, far and away the most important criteria in selecting shoes is how they fit and if you visit a few shops to try some on, it'll quickly become obvious which ones do - and which ones don't. Certain makes/models also have different feels in the uppers - one may be more sock-like, another may feel stiffer and more substantial, etc.

Also keep this in mind if you have particular narrow/wide feet or problem areas like a Tailor's bunion or something similar. Several companies offer their shoes in wide/narrow widths and Shimano's top-end heat moldable model is nearly unbeatable if you've got an even mildly atypical foot shape.

As for those Bont shoe claims in the mag - can't comment myself as I haven't used them myself. But I will say that a shoe absolutely can improve performance if it improves your pedaling mechanics either by a better fit or an adjustment such as a varus wedge (assuming your build would benefit from one). A "few gears" sounds rather generous but again, I can't say for sure myself.

 

[BroDeal]

I wouldn't call any claim outrageously stupid unless I knew for a fact that it was incorrect.

I would because I have an intuitive grasp of math that functions as a BS detector, just as everyone else should have if they passed elementry school math. For anyone else that lacks the skill of simple arithmetic, a small amount of experience riding a bike would tell them that the claim is crap.

Let's put it into numbers. If you usually ride a 53x19 at a hundred RPM, you will be traveling at roughly 35.1 kph (it varies a little with the tire size). If you are lucky enough to have an 18 tooth cog then a "few gears higher" will mean riding in a 17 or 16. The speeds for those cogs would be roughly 39.2 and 41.7 kph. Most people don't use cassettes that have an 18, so that means a 15 tooth one would be in the few gears higher range. A 15 works out to 44.5 kph, which is a whopping 26.7% increase in speed. Because power does not go up linearly with speed due to air resistance, it is a much much higher increase in power than 26.7%.

Those number alone should tell you that the claims are unadulterated cow manure.

There is no way that a reviewer for a bike magazine, who presumably rides bikes on occasion and has shoes that fit reasonably well, gets anywhere near such increases by going from off the shelf shoes to custom molded ones. It is an exaggeration that it so out of whack it is outrageously stupid to even print such a thing.

 

[DL9999]

You're making an awful lot of assumptions. The sentence I believe we are talking about was <after fitting the shoes properly,we found using a few gears higher than normal wasnt uncommon on our test rides>.

Nowhere does it say anything about pedalling speeds being constant, and there is no indication that the riders suddenly started breaking records or beating their personal bests as soon as they put on the Bonts.

Who knows? Maybe the shoes felt so great that the riders simply felt the need to mash huge gears just for the hell of it and to push themselves harder than normal. There would be nothing unusual about that.

Calling something stupid on the basis of a load of unfounded assumptions is just silly.

 

[Black Dog]

Come on now. It is a totally non-sense comment. It was stated to imply that the shoes made you noticeably faster. It could be placebo effect at best but the math does not lie. No shoe can make you that much faster if you have all-ready been riding with clip-less pedals. A couple gears is a big change and the comment is total hyperbola. If the author peddled slower in bigger gears then he should have said so, if not he mislead the readers. Either way he is dishonest. If his is honest, then he should explain why new shoes make you feel compelled to slow your cadence.

Product reviews are more like music reviews these days. They wax poetically and say very little about the real nature of the product unless it is to give it supernatural powers. The Stork review on this site is in this genre.


Bad review = lost advertising revenue?

 

[LAREDOUTE]

Update on the Bont saga.I called by my local bike shop and looked at a pair.Absolutely a beautifully handmade quality product.The shopowner is a racer and general no BS o.k.guy who has never put me wrong in the very few dealings we have had.He claims real advantage if hill work or sprinting are your thing.He suggests an extra 30-40watts that might otherwise be lost in translation,so to speak.Baden Cooke tried a pair from this shop when he was home over the off season and was very impressed apparently.The British and Australian track teams both use them.As a road shoe of course fit and comfort are essential as you contributors have been kind enough to point out.Ive enjoyed the spirited debate so far and the application of science to ferret out the nasty old BS that is forever trying to seduce money from our wallets!Please excuse lack of paragraphs etc,...up until a few months ago I still raced 6speed with downtube shifters so when it comes to keyboards and computers Im in the same league.Lets be clear!.......I did win in my catagory before the upgrade.

 

[BroDeal]

He suggests an extra 30-40watts that might otherwise be lost in translation,so to speak.

I think I would suggest a range of one tenth of that, like zero to three or four watts, with the actual value being closer to zero than to three or four. Thirty to forty watts is in the area a pro would expect to gain from taking a drug like EPO.

There are a few options here:

1) Buy a good quality shoe like SIDI, Specialized, Shimano, etc. Try on a lot of different types and choose the pair that fits the best. This is probably what 99+% of all amateurs do.

2) If you have problems with foot discomfort during or after long rides then you might try orthotics. There are lots of places to get these made. There are a lot of online sources that will sell you a kit. You use the kit to make a mold of your feet, send the mold back, and the company manufactures an orthotic shoe insert, usually giving you the choice between a variety of materials to match the intended use. Costs are usually 100 - 200 USD. Sounds like you are in aussie-land; I don't know the costs down there, but I would imagine it would be comparable.

3) If you have serious problems with your feet then instead of taking advice from a snakeoil salesman who works at a bike shop or an incompetent reviewer who works for a bike magazine, go see a podiatrist. Maybe the doctor will tell you that you need custom shoes, but I doubt it.

 

[James Huang]

Jeez, what's up with all of the anger here? Someone just asked for some help in choosing shoes, remember?

I'll reiterate what I said earlier:

- first and foremost, find ones that fit your feet. They should be evenly snug with good heel hold, a little bit of room for your toes to wiggle about, and shouldn't have any pressure points. Just like anything else, most people don't *need* custom-made shoes. But if you have the means, I also don't know anyone who have taken the plunge and decided to go back.

- a shoe *can* improve performance to some degree *if* it improves your pedaling mechanics. I'm sure all of us have seen riders whose knees wobble all over the place when they pedal - not good. Shoes can correct this and thus can absolutely help you go faster. "A few gears" faster? Er, that's probably stretching it.

- custom orthotics can also make a world of difference if your feet are anything but 'average'. But in that case, keep in mind that they're likely to take up more volume in the shoe. For example, Sidi insoles are notorious thin and dropping in a different insole will almost drastically alter the fit. In any case, yes, there are several mail-in/online options for orthotics but it's always to try to find someone local who knows cycling orthotics. There's no substitute for someone who is actually there in front of you to *look* at your feet and make corrections as needed. Mail-in/online outfits rely on a properly formed crush box/foot mold and there's a lot of error possible there.

Good luck!

 

[BroDeal]

Jeez, what's up with all of the anger here? Someone just asked for some help in choosing shoes, remember?

What anger? I believe in writing no nonsense, assertive statements. I certainly would not write someting like, "'A few gears' faster? Er, that's probably stretching it," when confronted with obvious B.S.

The OP was worried that not getting custom shoes would be a disadvantage in racing due to loss of power. My opinion is that worry is crap. Now if the OP was worried about finding the most comfortable shoes and standard off the shelf models were not working for him then the various levels of shoe customization that are available would be an option worth looking into.

 

[Bala Verde]

I would because I have an intuitive grasp of math that functions as a BS detector, just as everyone else should have if they passed elementry school math. For anyone else that lacks the skill of simple arithmetic, a small amount of experience riding a bike would tell them that the claim is crap.

Let's put it into numbers. If you usually ride a 53x19 at a hundred RPM, you will be traveling at roughly 35.1 kph (it varies a little with the tire size). If you are lucky enough to have an 18 tooth cog then a "few gears higher" will mean riding in a 17 or 16. The speeds for those cogs would be roughly 39.2 and 41.7 kph. Most people don't use cassettes that have an 18, so that means a 15 tooth one would be in the few gears higher range. A 15 works out to 44.5 kph, which is a whopping 26.7% increase in speed. Because power does not go up linearly with speed due to air resistance, it is a much much higher increase in power than 26.7%.

Those number alone should tell you that the claims are unadulterated cow manure.

There is no way that a reviewer for a bike magazine, who presumably rides bikes on occasion and has shoes that fit reasonably well, gets anywhere near such increases by going from off the shelf shoes to custom molded ones. It is an exaggeration that it so out of whack it is outrageously stupid to even print such a thing.

Good post! Haha, a couple of gears higher. That got me laughing, and then the 30-40W claim... I think that's the amount you gain by switching your road bike without horns, to a TT bike while adopting a more aero position, wearing an aero helmet and a skin suit.

30-40W gain just by swapping your shoes? If you can put out a whopping 400W for an hour that's 10%!

Just test some shoes, and make sure they fit well. Sidi's are relatively narrow and smallish, while Northwaves and Shimano's are rather broad and feel big (to me that is). Carbon soles are lighter and stiff(er) as opposed to hard plastic, but it's going to cost you. That might transfer energy to your big chainring a little more efficiently, but hey, a correct cleat position, could do that as well. Make sure you don't buy your shoes 'too small'. Although they seem to fit snug in the store your feet will swell a little when you are riding your bike. Cutting off your circulation is not a good thing...

 

[James Huang]

I went ahead and contacted a team trainer I know from a major US squad for his take. Here's what he had to say:

"Yes, there have been instances where one of my riders experienced performance improvements...the degree that this has been quantified, however, is weak. Mostly, it’s a subjective thing where the guys report feeling a lot better or it’s an injury issue where the guys report having some chronic pain or sore dissipate. So I don’t have power or physiological data showing how changing shoes, pedals, cleats, position effects performance in our population. But I can say if a shoe is uncomfortable the guys have issues. I think another area that our guys feel is helpful are orthotics. Just keeping things straight. Getting enough arch support. Many of our riders are a fan of the D2 lamson shoe or the specialized shoe."

 

[DL9999]

I believe in writing no nonsense, assertive statements. I certainly would not write someting like, "'A few gears' faster? Er, that's probably stretching it," when confronted with obvious B.S.

Believe it or not, there are riders even at the highest level who have real problems with standard shoes, to the extent that in some cases customisation is essential. The difference then is not one of riding a bigger gear while out for test ride, but of riding successfully and perhaps not riding at all.

 

[BroDeal]

Believe it or not, there are riders even at the highest level who have real problems with standard shoes, to the extent that in some cases customisation is essential. The difference then is not one of riding a bigger gear while out for test ride, but of riding successfully and perhaps not riding at all.

That is a totally different question. The OP did not post that he had a problem, for example, with the outside of his right foot, it was killing him on long rides, and he wanted to know if custom shoes might fix the problem. He was worried that he might be giving up some benefit of his hard won fitness by not buying magic shoes.

I ride with a couple people who have custom shoes, D2s and Rocket7s. One, I think, bought purely just to spend the money and tell people about it. The other had problems for years and he is extremely happy with his shoes. I think the real issue for the latter rider is that he has different sized feet. Which brings up the question why is it not easy to get each shoe of a pair in a different size? Neither rider is pushing a few, or even one, gear higher, though.

 

[DL9999]

It is not a different question at all. The original question was: do the shoes really make that much difference? The answer is: they can. Whether or not they will make a difference in a given case will depend in how well standard shoes fit the rider in question. And that is one piece of information the original poster didn't give.

Writing something off as "B.S", "magic" or "snake oil" when you haven't got all the facts is not helpful; neither is attempting to pick holes in a statement in a review purely on the basis of your interpretation of that statement.

 

[BroDeal]

It is not a different question at all. The original question was: do the shoes really make that much difference? The answer is: they can. Whether or not they will make a difference in a given case will depend in how well standard shoes fit the rider in question. And that is one piece of information the original poster didn't give.

Writing something off as "B.S", "magic" or "snake oil" when you haven't got all the facts is not helpful; neither is attempting to pick holes in a statement in a review purely on the basis of your interpretation of that statement.

The OP asked, and I quote, "QUESTION IS do these shoes really make that much difference.I dont want to loose any of my hard won wattage!" In the context of his question, the claims made about the shoes are absolute B.S.. To make matters worse, the OP indicates that he is upgrading on a budget, and thus is even less of a candidate for custom shoes unless they are clearly needed.

If the magazine intended that the statement in their review only applied to people with existing foot problems then they should have had the intelligence to say so instead of leading people to believe that a pair of magic shoes could increase a rider's power by ten to thirty percent. If they don't want to be called on their exaggerations then they should not exaggerate.

I guess the real question is, since apparently you registered for this site only to talk about these shoes, do you work for Bont or do you work for Cycling Plus? I will guess Bont since they have been using cycling forums to push their shoes, which I have only heard good things about aside from the lack of ventilation.

 

[DL9999]

Magic shoes? Ten to thirty percent?? Whatever you say.

Who I work for is irrelevant.

 

[nightfend]

What the op really needs is the most expensive carbon pedals with titanium axles. That will surely allow him to push a few gears higher. I recommend those new $800 Speedplay pedals.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[Johnny Colnago]

I put on some Bonts and I didn't even notice but I was floating a few cm about the bike and flying up the Col du Galibier at 35kph. Once I hit the top was where it all went to $hit. The bike continued a downward trajectory and started to descend on it's own while I continue flying higher and higher. I am currently posting this from a low altitude earth orbit. Fortunately for me Lance hooked me up with some CERA so my haemocrit is high enough I can breathe in comfort at this elevation.

My advice to the OP is go speak to LA and get some medical help and then buy the bonts otherwise you might end up orbiting at 10km alt. without enough O2 my friend.

 

[quadsRme]

in response to the thread, I have used Shimano, Diadora, Sidi
Sidi wins out in my books

I am not even going to go back to the Detto's I wore back in the early '70's

again as i it was stated, it's a personal choice

 

[EricBikeCO]

perfect

I would because I have an intuitive grasp of math that functions as a BS detector ...

Bingo! I love it when anyone uses innate ability with math to squash supposition. Why didn't I join this forum sooner?

Now if the baseline for their comparison is a total P.O.S. shoe that horribly fit their foot then fine, maybe you get a cog or maybe two out of it. "Gears" worth, puh-lease. I would attribute any gains to any of a dozen ergonomic changes a different shoe could yield - pitch, yaw, twist, toe-in, toe-out, fore, aft, whatever you want to call any of the infinite tweaks.

 

[Johnny Colnago]

Bingo! I love it when anyone uses innate ability with math to squash supposition. Why didn't I join this forum sooner?

Now if the baseline for their comparison is a total P.O.S. shoe that horribly fit their foot then fine, maybe you get a cog or maybe two out of it. "Gears" worth, puh-lease. I would attribute any gains to any of a dozen ergonomic changes a different shoe could yield - pitch, yaw, twist, toe-in, toe-out, fore, aft, whatever you want to call any of the infinite tweaks.

Ah but you two are forgetting the obvious.
The tester grabbed a few gears higher but his cadence slowed accordingly.
During the test he was riding a 53x11 but only spinning at 20rpm or so!

BTW my re-entry into the lower atmosphere after I removed my Bonts was pretty sketchy. Fortunately I was able to use an old Brooks saddle as a heat shield. Now it needs only a mere 50,000km of more riding before it is broken in adequately!

 

[biomac]

Ok, here is facts, no fiction:
This is what James Huang wrote about biomac shoes June 10th, 2009:
(...)"With the relatively flexible lower leg system taken out of the equation, power transmission is noticeably more direct and the power stroke is effectively lengthened. As promised, almost all stress on the calves is relieved – virtually eliminating cramps there – and we really did find ourselves motoring along on flats and extended climbs better than usual."
This is what Joe Friel published in his very first blog January 2007 on my patented cycling shoe sole:
(...)"Last July former pro cyclist and shoe designer Goetz Heine (http://www.biomac.biz) suggested I try putting my cleats in the arch of my shoes. With some skepticism I tried it. To my amazement my performance improved. In fact, my power-heart rate ratio which I tracked for years improved by 9%. That's a huge change."
This is what Steve Hogg, famous Sydney-based positionist wrote about the shoes and what he baptised 'midfoot-cleat position':
(...)"What is also obvious using torque analysis is that midfoot cleat positioning flattens the riders torque curve for a given power output. In essence the rider is pushing for longer per stroke rather than harder. This is important because a lower torque peak for the same wattage equals lower peak muscular contraction which in turn equals less fatigue and / or quicker recovery. All of which means greater ability to sustain a given load."
Needless to say than none of the beforementioned experts receive a cheque or find themselves on biomac's payroll.
For obvious reasons I will not comment on this but leave it to your common sense...