SI Article Referenced by Beech Mtn

[MacRoadie]

How Floyd Landis' accusations will impact this year's Tour de France

Parts I liked best:

What else should testers look for, based on what they've learned from Landis? "One thing I would be looking for, based on Floyd's account," writes Ashenden, "is a steady hemoglobin value throughout the 3-week race." In other words, the inhuman rigors of a grand tour should force those values down. "It is both unnatural and highly suggestive of doping if blood values do not decline during a Tour."

(Sort of like this profile, posted by Lance Armstrong on his LiveStrong site after last year's Tour, but subsequently taken down. In Armstrong's defense, hematocrit levels can be skewed by diarrhea and dehydration.)

and

To me, that's a no-brainer. The Tour ends in Paris on Sunday, July 25. Let the guys sleep in on Monday, the 26. In the meantime, keep cleaning up the sport.

 

[Kennf1]

I think we can expect several tweets from Armstrong during the Tour complaining of diarrhea.

 

[MacRoadie]

I think we can expect several tweets from Armstrong during the Tour complaining of diarrhea.

Judging by the tone of that article, and given the fact that they still included the Armstrong data, even after admitting it had been taken down from the site, I get the strong feeling that "In Armstrong's defense, hematocrit levels can be skewed by diarrhea and dehydration" was ONLY included at the insistance of an editor to get the article vetted.

 

[hrotha]

Judging by the tone of that article, and given the fact that they still included the Armstrong data, even after admitting it had been taken down from the site, I get the strong feeling that "In Armstrong's defense, hematocrit levels can be skewed by diarrhea and dehydration" was ONLY included at the insistance of an editor to get the article vetted.

Personally, without knowing anything about the journalist or about SI, I got the feeling he included that line as another jab at LA. Maybe he was pressured to tone it down a bit and he decided to put the Armstrong defense in the most ridiculous terms possible.

 

[MacRoadie]

Personally, without knowing anything about the journalist or about SI, I got the feeling he included that line as another jab at LA. Maybe he was pressured to tone it down a bit and he decided to put the Armstrong defense in the most ridiculous terms possible.

Exactly.

When did anyone ever really think that SI would take such overt jabs at LA?

 

[Oldman]

Exactly.

When did anyone ever really think that SI would take such overt jabs at LA?

Agreed. They seem to be in the hero business and seldom represent a negative story unless it's already widely known. A classic "Majorette" publication that runs in front of the parade with the glossiest cover. Quit subscriptions to that rag decades ago.

 

[Anonymous]

Different story than this, but I was just reading the Outside article on Armstrong, and they made a big deal about the riders who left Astana for RS and how never had there been an exodus from the star to an aging rider...never did they or anyone remember that EVERYONE wanted to leave Astana because of the funding problems last year. Then there was this little gem from Liggett: "Contador knows Bruyneel is a great tactician," says cycling analyst Phil Liggett. "And there's no [team director] at Astana who's going to guide him like that, I don't think. So we're going to see how clever he is now. Because Lance knows how he thinks. He knows he can't beat Contador one on one—the strength is not there anymore—but he does know he can outthink him."...they forgot to add before the quote "Getting up from kneeling at the feet of Armstrong and wiping the Santorum from his mouth"

http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/201007/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france-2010-3.html

 

[Beech Mtn]

Bloomberg has an article up. I also posted the link in Landis Links thread.

Suddenly a lot of articles appearing. Maybe we'll get the much-heralded WSJ article soon?

 

[MacRoadie]

Bloomberg has an article up. I also posted the link in Landis Links thread.

Suddenly a lot of articles appearing. Maybe we'll get the much-heralded WSJ article soon?

Gotta love the headline too:

Tour de France Drug Cheats Opt for Smaller Doses to Avoid Test Detection

Not a single "alleged", "suspected" to be found. Just a very matter-of-fact "Tour de France Drug Cheats".

Everyone is on to the significance of the retic counts...

 

[Publicus]

Different story than this, but I was just reading the Outside article on Armstrong, and they made a big deal about the riders who left Astana for RS and how never had there been an exodus from the star to an aging rider...never did they or anyone remember that EVERYONE wanted to leave Astana because of the funding problems last year. Then there was this little gem from Liggett: "Contador knows Bruyneel is a great tactician," says cycling analyst Phil Liggett. "And there's no [team director] at Astana who's going to guide him like that, I don't think. So we're going to see how clever he is now. Because Lance knows how he thinks. He knows he can't beat Contador one on one—the strength is not there anymore—but he does know he can outthink him."...they forgot to add before the quote "Getting up from kneeling at the feet of Armstrong and wiping the Santorum from his mouth"

http://outside.away.com/outside/culture/201007/lance-armstrong-tour-de-france-2010-3.html

Does anyone have Martinelli's email address? I would love to send him a copy of that quote from Liggett.

 

[Publicus]

Bloomberg has an article up. I also posted the link in Landis Links thread.

Suddenly a lot of articles appearing. Maybe we'll get the much-heralded WSJ article soon?

This seems new:

They say they can also detect when riders have transfused their own blood, an infraction for which there is no doping test in place. The level of hemoglobin, the iron-containing respiratory pigment in red blood cells, drops when blood is extracted and the number of immature blood cells, or reticulocytes, rises when it’s re-infused.

I'm not a clinic expert, but I seem to recall that they COULDN'T tell when riders had transfused their blood. Or am I just admitting my own ignorance?

 

[Escarabajo]

This seems new:



I'm not a clinic expert, but I seem to recall that they COULDN'T tell when riders had transfused their blood. Or am I just admitting my own ignorance?

IMHO. I am sure they can, but it will not hold in court. That's the problem. So the tolerance is too high. I am sure Ashenden in biting his lips on this but can not do much about it. If a physical illness like Diarrhea can explain the peaks and valleys then there lies the problem. Unless they have a new study in which Diarrhea can not drop the retics that low.

 

[Nearly]

Bloomberg has an article up. I also posted the link in Landis Links thread.

Suddenly a lot of articles appearing. Maybe we'll get the much-heralded WSJ article soon?

Ashenden is quoted as saying "“I’m afraid things are as bad as they’ve ever been ....What I see is the incidence of riders trying to dope and avoid detection isn’t very different to how it has been throughout history ...” yet the Passport panel which he is on is apparently only seeing "... “10 to 20” abnormal readings a month from about 800 riders’ blood and urine samples ..."?

To most of us that would seem a stunningly low approx 1% suspicion factor (or even less if you consider tests are often targetted rather than totally random). If the BP is useless in casting suspicion how does Ashenden base his "riders trying to dope and avoid detection isn’t very different" statement? Nothing showed up in the past and nothing is showing up now - ergo they are all still doing it?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Ashenden is quoted as saying "“I’m afraid things are as bad as they’ve ever been ....What I see is the incidence of riders trying to dope and avoid detection isn’t very different to how it has been throughout history ...” yet the Passport panel which he is on is apparently only seeing "... “10 to 20” abnormal readings a month from about 800 riders’ blood and urine samples ..."?

To most of us that would seem a stunningly low approx 1% suspicion factor (or even less if you consider tests are often targetted rather than totally random). If the BP is useless in casting suspicion how does Ashenden base his "riders trying to dope and avoid detection isn’t very different" statement? Nothing showed up in the past and nothing is showing up now - ergo they are all still doing it?

Read what it said - " “10 to 20” abnormal readings a month from about 800 riders’ blood and urine samples"....

That is 10 to 20 samples from a pool of 800 riders - not 800 samples.

 

[Nearly]

Read what it said - " “10 to 20” abnormal readings a month from about 800 riders’ blood and urine samples"....

That is 10 to 20 samples from a pool of 800 riders - not 800 samples.

Oops (damn stats)! Hard to draw any conclusions really then if you do not know how many from the pool have been sampled and how many samples come for each. Whichever way it seems surprisingly low though.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This seems new:

They say they can also detect when riders have transfused their own blood, an infraction for which there is no doping test in place. The level of hemoglobin, the iron-containing respiratory pigment in red blood cells, drops when blood is extracted and the number of immature blood cells, or reticulocytes, rises when it’s re-infused.

I'm not a clinic expert, but I seem to recall that they COULDN'T tell when riders had transfused their blood. Or am I just admitting my own ignorance?

As 'Escarabajo' pointed out it probably isn't enough to satisfy the legal side.

But also the article went on to say:

Dopers can mask a decline in hemoglobin by injecting a small quantity of EPO, which would disperse into the bloodstream within hours and minimize the risk of testing positive, Parisotto said. Landis told ESPN.com in May that there was “virtually no chance” of getting caught a few hours later if the EPO is injected intravenously.

The athletes adapted very quickly to beat the system.

 

[lean mean &green]

They say they can also detect when riders have transfused their own blood, an infraction for which there is no doping test in place. The level of hemoglobin, the iron-containing respiratory pigment in red blood cells, drops when blood is extracted and the number of immature blood cells, or reticulocytes, rises when it’s re-infused.

i think the author of the bloomberg article bungled this explanation. reticulocytes (retics) should go DOWN when blood is reinfused. ie the body will turn off production of new RBC's when their volume suddenly increases, the number of immature cells would decrease and that's why it's at this time EPO is injected, probably intravenously, to bring retics back to acceptable passport levels.

EDIT: this isn't really a new way of testing for autologous transfusions, same measures that have been a part of the passport for awhile. bloomberg article looks to be thrown together.

 

[MacRoadie]

i think the author of the bloomberg article bungled this explanation. reticulocytes (retics) should go DOWN when blood is reinfused. ie the body will turn off production of new RBC's when their volume suddenly increases, the number of immature cells would decrease and that's why it's at this time EPO is injected, probably intravenously, to bring retics back to acceptable passport levels.

I think the SI article spelled it out much better:

One of the markers measured by the passport is the number of new or "immature" red-blood cells, called reticulocytes, in the bloodstream. When a rider transfuses blood, his body responds by sharply reducing its production of reticulocytes - a red flag to testers.

To nudge their "retic" count back into normal range after a transfusion, Landis recently told Bonnie Ford of ESPN.com, he and other riders would inject themselves with smaller doses of EPO, during races, on a nightly basis

 

[Publicus]

I think the SI article spelled it out much better:

Is it true that WADA does not test from 9 pm - 6 am? If so, they should shorten that time period to inside of the 6-8 hour window that Floyd indicated it takes for micro-dosing to be out of a rider's system.