So I Was Thinking...

[Johnny Rotten]

So I was just reading some other threads and I had a thought that has most likely been discussed at one time on here.

My thought was on why other cyclists don't speak out against the dopers that are cheating them out of their success.

I would think one obvious reason is that the others that are doping do not want to call down the others in fear they may get turned in for being hypocritical.

But another thought I had was that perhaps those that are not doping or have not doped yet, are fearful of being blacklisted by the rest of the other teams and therefore loosing out on future contracts or oppertunities because of how wide spread the doping is? Any thoughts on this?

And last if the governing bodies were serious about cleaning up the sport then they should move to automatic lifetime bans for those caught doping.

 

[ElChingon]

How can you speak out against it if the teams, governing body are all in on the farce?

Saying anything means that rider will end up on the un-employment line.

I guess they could ride for a French team? But they already have all the French riders so adding non-French riders would be a burden.

I still have my doubts the USA-based teams are not in on the farce, mainly because they don't say anything to indicate they are on the right side of the fence.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

How can you speak out against it if the teams, governing body are all in on the farce?

Saying anything means that rider will end up on the un-employment line.

I guess they could ride for a French team? But they already have all the French riders so adding non-French riders would be a burden.

I still have my doubts the USA-based teams are not in on the farce, mainly because they don't say anything to indicate they are on the right side of the fence.

Well put.

I agree. If it was only just a few bad apples as some would have us all believe and not a widespread issue those that are not part of the doping culture should be safe to express their opinion and take a stance on the right side of the fence.

 

[Cloxxki]

Would there really be any properly paid (like more than a simple office klerk) riders who don't dope, say after 3 years among the pro's?
If you are still out there struggling, doping all around you, and you resisting the temptation all these years, why are you still in the sport at all? Like a jewish boy joining Hitler's army because he just likes to march. Or the vegetarian girl I knew, who got a job at McDonalds because she genuinely liked the place.
A pro-level gifted athlete can find other sports with less dense doping implementation to excell at.

 

[erader]

So I was just reading some other threads and I had a thought that has most likely been discussed at one time on here.

My thought was on why other cyclists don't speak out against the dopers that are cheating them out of their success.

I would think one obvious reason is that the others that are doping do not want to call down the others in fear they may get turned in for being hypocritical.

But another thought I had was that perhaps those that are not doping or have not doped yet, are fearful of being blacklisted by the rest of the other teams and therefore loosing out on future contracts or oppertunities because of how wide spread the doping is? Any thoughts on this?

And last if the governing bodies were serious about cleaning up the sport then they should move to automatic lifetime bans for those caught doping.

why do you think lifetime bans would work? you know capital punishment does not deter murder.

why do you think cleaning up the sport is possible? can you name another sport that has been cleansed of doping?

just say no doesn't work.

how long have you been watching cycling? since i've been watching there have been a couple of proclamations of a new era of clean cyclists, and the sport is just as dirty as it's ever been.

in 2006 the mexican government declared war on drug traffickers and have created a huge mess and thousands have been killed. i'll bet cycling officials, like the calderon government, wish the genie could be stuffed back in the bottle.

erader

 

[Johnny Rotten]

why do you think lifetime bans would work? you know capital punishment does not deter murder.

why do you think cleaning up the sport is possible? can you name another sport that has been cleansed of doping?

just say no doesn't work.

how long have you been watching cycling? since i've been watching there have been a couple of proclamations of a new era of clean cyclists, and the sport is just as dirty as it's ever been.

in 2006 the mexican government declared war on drug traffickers and have created a huge mess and thousands have been killed. i'll bet cycling officials, like the calderon government, wish the genie could be stuffed back in the bottle.

erader

Well I am not saying things will ever be 100% Clean or that things will be perfect.

However you need to remove the benefit of doping witch is the ability to compete, win, and make money.

I feel that if you insitute lifetime bans and implement heavy financial penalties to the doped riders, teams, and team management it would be a good start.

As well the sponsors should start placing in the contracts, not just contract cancelations clauses but they should get the teams and riders to sign that lock them into financial penalties for doping. In other words if Armstrong/Contador/Vino/Basso/Landis etc or who ever is busted then Trek, Specialized, etc should all take them to the cleaners along with every other sponsor. Ruin them and kick them right out of the sport.

Being caught doping should ruin them for cheating. As it is now they might get caught and if they do then they simply serve there time out and then back at it. I mean look at Basso he gets busted and wham he is right back at it. What do you think his Giro win netted him?

 

[hrotha]

Well I am not saying things will ever be 100% Clean or that things will be perfect.

However you need to remove the benefit of doping witch is the ability to compete, win, and make money.

I feel that if you insitute lifetime bans and implement heavy financial penalties to the doped riders, teams, and team management it would be a good start.

As well the sponsors should start placing in the contracts, not just contract cancelations clauses but they should get the teams and riders to sign that lock them into financial penalties for doping. In other words if Armstrong/Contador/Vino/Basso/Landis etc or who ever is busted then Trek, Specialized, etc should all take them to the cleaners along with every other sponsor. Ruin them and kick them right out of the sport.

Being caught doping should ruin them for cheating. As it is now they might get caught and if they do then they simply serve there time out and then back at it. I mean look at Basso he gets busted and wham he is right back at it. What do you think his Giro win netted him?

Unfortunately, when you cheat or commit a crime you're not thinking you'll be caught. The punishment, no matter how serious, is something that falls on other people who are careless or just don't know how to do things right. You're aware of how devastating it'll be if you're caught, but that won't happen. Therefore, no matter how harsh the penalty, that won't deter anybody if they think they stand to gain from it while getting away with it, especially if they don't risk becoming a pariah the second they show any interest in doping (i.e. if there's not a profound change in the culture of the peloton).

That said, if you look at the GC of all three GTs in the last years, most guys were caught eventually, and yet it would seem that's not enough of a deterrent. But lifetime bans wouldn't fix the problem either. You need proper tests, a non-corrupt organization overseeing them, criminal investigations and police raids, and a culture change. If you have all that, even shorter bans would do fine. In the short-term, however, maybe lifetime bans with a reduction to 2 years for cooperating would be a good idea. I just hope they'd still find a team when they came back - not sure cycling has reached that point yet.

 

[ingsve]

why do you think lifetime bans would work? you know capital punishment does not deter murder.

why do you think cleaning up the sport is possible? can you name another sport that has been cleansed of doping?

just say no doesn't work.

how long have you been watching cycling? since i've been watching there have been a couple of proclamations of a new era of clean cyclists, and the sport is just as dirty as it's ever been.

in 2006 the mexican government declared war on drug traffickers and have created a huge mess and thousands have been killed. i'll bet cycling officials, like the calderon government, wish the genie could be stuffed back in the bottle.

erader

If murder only gave a two year prison sentence and once you were out there was no drawback whatsoever do you think there would be more murders or less murders? Of course the severity of the punishment has effects. It may not be the ultimate solution but a lifetime ban would certainly be more effective than what we have today. It wouldn't eradicate the problem but it would make a change.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

If murder only gave a two year prison sentence and once you were out there was no drawback whatsoever do you think there would be more murders or less murders? Of course the severity of the punishment has effects. It may not be the ultimate solution but a lifetime ban would certainly be more effective than what we have today. It wouldn't eradicate the problem but it would make a change.

I could not have said that better myself!

 

[Avoriaz]

If murder only gave a two year prison sentence and once you were out there was no drawback whatsoever do you think there would be more murders or less murders? Of course the severity of the punishment has effects. It may not be the ultimate solution but a lifetime ban would certainly be more effective than what we have today. It wouldn't eradicate the problem but it would make a change.

True to a point, but first of all you weigh up the risks of being caught. The penalty for murder may be life (or death), but if the chance of being caught was practically zero (as it seems to have been for blood doping and micro dosing), then the tariff for being caught becomes irrelevant.

 

[TubularBills]

No disrespect and may they rest in peace but both Pantani and Vandenbrouke paid the ultimate price and it seems that Ullrich, Dekker, Hamilton and Landis aren't exactly swimming in cash or having an easy go of it.

The impact and pain of being ostracized could eventually have a positive effect through these unfortunate negative examples and result in a reduction in doping?

I'm optimistic that a widespread landslide of positives and worldwide enforcement will strike fear in both the domestic and international pelotons resulting in a reduced participation.

Or, I could just be naive.

A six or more figure income for doing something you love, at least at first, is a big carrot and humans are notoriously weak willed. Eventually it all comes down to ego and money.

 

[ingsve]

True to a point, but first of all you weigh up the risks of being caught. The penalty for murder may be life (or death), but if the chance of being caught was practically zero (as it seems to have been for blood doping and micro dosing), then the tariff for being caught becomes irrelevant.

That's why bans shouldn't be the only effort to reduce doping. It has to be adressed from both sides. We need to both increase the cost of getting caught and the chance of getting caught.

Testing can't be the only way to catch people since we already know that testing is not 100% reliable, but rather far from it. To really have a chance there needs to be other types of proof that can convict people which is why I think the Armstrong case can be pretty important if they can actually prove that he cheated without a positive test. The O'bee case is a good start with them stripping results based on non-positive proof of cheating already four years before his second positive result.

 

[Roninho]

True to a point, but first of all you weigh up the risks of being caught. The penalty for murder may be life (or death), but if the chance of being caught was practically zero (as it seems to have been for blood doping and micro dosing), then the tariff for being caught becomes irrelevant.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

If you increase the odds of detecting dope to a level that it is more then likely you will get caught then you will see a chance in dope use. The dope fighters will always be behind with their technologies, so unfortunately the only way i see this happening is when you implement a system of retesting after a couple of years.

 

[Leopejo]

A pro-level gifted athlete can find other sports with less dense doping implementation to excell at.

Examples please.

 

[Chuffy]

if you think about it in terms of your workplace then it becomes easier to understand. I have worked in places where colleagues bent the rules ('cheated') and took advantage of the goodwill of other colleagues. Not dissimilar to dopers taking advantage of clean riders. Now, it used to annoy me (and others) but there is a limit to how much you can scream and shout about it. I could have complained to the management that Colleague A was faking a weeks illness so that he could sit at home drinking cider and running his second-hand record business but I'd have no proof and it would have made my relationships with other colleagues (dodgy or otherwise) much more difficult. Repeating this every time a colleague took the **** would just send my blood pressure through the roof while achieveing nothing. After a while all you can do is shrug and accept things. I wouldn't deny that the Omerta exists in the pro-peloton but it's part of a normal workplace dynamic, it isn't something specific to cycling or doping.

 

[darkcloud]

dopers

Knowing that a positive test result would mean a lifetime ban from cycling as well as a large monetary penalty WOULD greatly reduce doping.
The problem now is that the penalty is a joke.
I think it would also be great if the teams owners employing dopers would also face serious consequence. Perhaps they would buckle down and get serious about this as well.
"Hey, your rider just tested positive. He is out of the sport for life and YOUR fine is x-amount and your teams season is officially over as of the date that the positive test result was returned." You might even have the clean riders administering some "justice."
This is truly a messed up sport that needs to get serious about its drug issue.

 

[TubularBills]

Examples please.

Exactly - There is doping throughout, including Badminton and Table Tennis (Ping Pong) coincidentally with Clenbuterol.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/sports/2010-09/30/content_11367926.htm

 

[Irish2009]

When a crime is committed the sentance is rarely a deterent. If however your crime effects others adversely then the concequences become greater for the perpetrator. If Spainish riders were banned from the Worlds/Olympics/Grand Tours because of Cantador/Mosquero/Valvarde bans then thier behaviour would become unpopular with Spanish fans/other Spanish riders who as a concequence would suffer. If the punishment becomes National instead of being personal then punishment might work. Life time bans are at this stage are a must as a deterrent (its hardly a death sentance), theres always the unemployment line.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

if you think about it in terms of your workplace then it becomes easier to understand. I have worked in places where colleagues bent the rules ('cheated') and took advantage of the goodwill of other colleagues. Not dissimilar to dopers taking advantage of clean riders. Now, it used to annoy me (and others) but there is a limit to how much you can scream and shout about it. I could have complained to the management that Colleague A was faking a weeks illness so that he could sit at home drinking cider and running his second-hand record business but I'd have no proof and it would have made my relationships with other colleagues (dodgy or otherwise) much more difficult. Repeating this every time a colleague took the **** would just send my blood pressure through the roof while achieveing nothing. After a while all you can do is shrug and accept things. I wouldn't deny that the Omerta exists in the pro-peloton but it's part of a normal workplace dynamic, it isn't something specific to cycling or doping.

+1.
I would also add some other points.

Any rider who is clean will not be as privy to what is going on in the team - sure, they may have strong suspicions or heard rumours but more than likely they are kept on the outside.

Also - even if they can confirm their suspicions, who do they turn to? Chances are they cannot confide in the DS or probably even the team owners, and they sure as hell won't go to the UCI.

 

[Chuffy]

+1.
I would also add some other points.

Any rider who is clean will not be as privy to what is going on in the team - sure, they may have strong suspicions or heard rumours but more than likely they are kept on the outside.

Also - even if they can confirm their suspicions, who do they turn to? Chances are they cannot confide in the DS or probably even the team owners, and they sure as hell won't go to the UCI.

Like I said, after a while I'm sure that doping just becomes white noise in the background for most pros. That's why I get annoyed when people draw simplistic conclusions based on Rider X or Team Manager Y not exploding with rage at the latest scandal. I'm sure that many posters on here who would prefer it if the likes of Evans/Millar/Vaughters/Whoever, spent their entire careers purple with rage and spitting bile any time someone sticks a microphone near them but it's unreasonable to expect that. I didn't have the energy to stay angry 24/7, why should they?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

A pro-level gifted athlete can find other sports with less dense doping implementation to excell at.[/QUOTE]


Well, that's a bit sad don't you think?

Cycling is now the bottom of the garbage bin, according to your reasoning.

I'm all for physiologically gifted people trying to find a way to express it. But now, once again according to your reasoning, cycling is going to be out of the equation?

If as much as effort was put into spanking the UCI as is put into these pointless threads, then maybe something WOULD happen.

Let your money (buying licences, gear, etc) do the talking, rather than relegating a sport we all love fall to the side because WE can't get it to smartten up.

Of course we can.