Spain, since 1992.

[Andynonomous]

The tone and title of this thread is bordering on predjudice. It is duly unjust to single out Spain when doping in sports as You all Know is a world wide epidemic. "Spain since 1992" is rather like trolling disguised as predjudice.

Implying "they all do it by the same amount" is trolling by denial.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

Implying "they all do it by the same amount" is trolling by denial.

What a load of nonsense. And this is a cycling forum not a forum for tennis advocates, or nation basher's for that matter.

 

[Escarabajo]

Though indeed Spain is merely catching up with other countries in terms of quantities of doped athletes and teams, they are still trailing behind by some distance when it comes to dealing with/sanctioning doped athletes.
Admittedly, the Galgo-case is a good sign, but Spanish sporting bodies continue to hide in ignorance, with people like Odriorzola refusing to take any responsibility, and with obvious cheaters like AC still receiving massive public and institutional support.

Pedro Lopes gets a 15 year sanction for repetitively breaking the anti-doping rules.
If the RFEC is anywhere near as rigorous in punishing cheats as the Portuguese federation, then AC should be getting round about the same sanction, for his repetetive breaking of the rules (Fuentes pre-2006 + CLEN positive 2010).

I can not argue with what you said. I think that you are right. Maybe that's the main difference with some of the other countries. I believe that there are some countries that could be worse at punishing the athletes than Spain. Maybe China comes to mind. Maybe some of the countries of that belonged to the steel curtain.

 

[sniper]

What a load of nonsense. And this is a cycling forum not a forum for tennis advocates, or nation basher's for that matter.

I agree that the tone chosen to open the thread was a bit TOO much, with the CAPITAL LETTERS and all.
Still:
One apparent fact is this (and draw whatever conclusion from it that you want):
Spain is the country with one of the (if not the) most spectacular improvement in terms of sports results over the last two decades internationaly. This has been obvious for all to see and has been most striking in sports where they used to underperform prior to Barcelona (especially athletics, but also in a series of other sports).
I think it is completely relevant to openly discuss the factors that may have triggered this staggering raise in perfomance in this staggeringly small period of time. Moreover, the implication of Spanish riders in the Puerto-case, as well as a recent wave of Spanish riders testing positive, justify discussing this issue here in the Clinic. However, indeed, the discussion should be open-minded leaving room for conclusions in different directions.

Just as important is this: IMO, Spanish sports can only benefit from openly discussing the recent past.
Hiding behind "nation bashing"-related lines of defense (or by pointing at presumed anti-Spanish conspiracies) is not gonna help Spain regain trust, or polish its reputation, sports-wise. IMO, the only way for Spanish sports to recover its image is to openly discuss what has been going on in the recent two post-Barcelona decades.

But agreed, the tone with which this is discussed could surely be more neutral, less agressive, and all.

 

[Mambo95]

Still:
One apparent fact is this (and draw whatever conclusion from it that you want):
Spain is the country with one of the (if not the) most spectacular improvement in terms of sports results over the last two decades internationaly. This has been obvious for all to see and has been most striking in sports where they used to underperform prior to Barcelona (especially athletics, but also in a series of other sports).

The thing is, though, they're not really doing particularly better than other sizable Western European nation (Germany, France, UK, Italy, Netherlands). The main reason that they have improved so much in the last couple of decades is that they were so woefully underperforming before 1992 (probably something to do with Franco). Going back to the OP, compare Spain's Olympic medal hauls 1972-1988 with the five countries I mentioned (and Sweden, even) They were embarrassingly bad.

 

[sniper]

The thing is, though, they're not really doing particularly better than other sizable Western European nation (Germany, France, UK, Italy, Netherlands). The main reason that they have improved so much in the last couple of decades is that they were so woefully underperforming before 1992 (probably something to do with Franco). Going back to the OP, compare Spain's Olympic medal hauls 1972-1988 with the five countries I mentioned (and Sweden, even) They were embarrassingly bad.

Partially true IMO.
I would say that in depth, Spain are currently out-performing the Netherlands (by a longshot) and Italy (with a population very comparable to Spain).
Of course, Germany, France, and Great Britain are still right up there. And Spain play no role whatsoever in wintersports.

So generally, I agree that, starting with Barcelona, Spain has mainly been catching up with the rest.

Still, some recent peaks have been remarkable and therefore suspitious (in the light of Puerto and Galgo), such as the dominant Spanish Armada in tennis (also on hard-court, not their favorite underground) and cycling, and more or less sudden peaks in a number of teamsports such as basketball, soccer (including futsal), and (though less prestigious) field-hockey.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Of course, Germany, France, and Great Britain are still right up there. And Spain play no role whatsoever in wintersports.

Spain (via Germany) have the most notorious (and patently obvious) doper in living wintersports memory - Johann "Juanito" Mühlegg.

 

[Mambo95]

(though less prestigious) field-hockey.

Their rise in hockey is almost entirely down to money - their clubs being able to pay their players and foreigners, something that only really happens in the Netherlands and Germany, and excellent facilities.

(I'm a hockey player. Formerly European club level. My club plays in the European Trophy and we exist on an annual budget of £20k a year. Money makes a huge difference.)

 

[flicker]

The tone and title of this thread is bordering on predjudice. It is duly unjust to single out Spain when doping in sports as You all Know is a world wide epidemic. "Spain since 1992" is rather like trolling disguised as predjudice.

Puerto, Valverde, FIFA, Contador,Fuentes again. Mosquera, etc.
That is not about bashing Spain, but it is about prevelance and acceptance of doping in sport in Europe.

We have the same problems in the US. Valverde and FIFA really made me mad though.

 

[Monte Zoncolon]

If You choose not to dope as an athlete then You will not reap the Fortune and Fame that You grew up dreaming about when You were Young and naive. You will forever be remembered in the history book's as a nobody. A loser. So You will not gain the Fortune You desire and feel stigmatized because of Your failing's.

On the other hand if You are an athlete and choose to dope Your chances of Fame and fortune are increased by one hundred fold. You will take that once in a lifetime opportunity in a short career and reap the benefit's of Your success with fame and fortune and become a heroic figure in ones country..
Provided of course that You are not caught with a positive doping test.

If You are caught with a positive test then You will forever carry around the stigma of being a cheat.
You duped Your Family, friend's and nation. Your popularity and self esteem will subside to new found depths. You May be stripped of Your titles and Pay a Fine. Your health may or may not suffer as a result of Your pharmaceutical tendencies. But In the end when all is said and done You may still have the fortune that everyone dreams about.

 

[galaxy1]

We have the same problems in the US.

exactly. loving the number of americans prepared to bash various european countries for this.

USA started much earlier than '92 though.

 

[laziali]

Number of spanish medals at the Olympics:

-1900: 1
-1904: n/a
-1908: n/a
-1912: n/a
-1920: 2
-1924: 0
-1928: 1
-1932: 1
-1936: n/a
-1948: 1
-1952: 1
-1956: n/a
-1960: 1
-1964: 0
-1968: 0
-1972: 1
-1976: 2
-1980: 6
-1984: 5
-1988: 4
-1992: 22
-1996: 17
-2000: 11
-2004: 19
-2008: 18

... [looong story removed] ...

I know there are those in EXTREME denial who will try to "argue away" the evidence, but the truth is as clear as crystal.

Ah, did you normalise for Franco? Didn't think so

 

[Je ne sais quoi]

The reason for Spain's prominence in 1992 and since, has to do with hosting the Olympics in Barcelona. They sunk a massive, unprecedented amount of money into development in the quadrennial leading up to the Games. They maintained many of their potential medal contenders with 6 figure budgets for several years, and offered straight up cash bonuses of in excess of $1 million for a medal. Low and behold, in four years a lot of athletes went from being decent top-10 contenders to actual medalists and pocketed huge incentives.

It was a mind-blower for athletes from outside of Spain, and it was a true game-changer, raising the bar for federations all over the world. Although host nations had always risen to the occasion, since Barcelona, host nations (and other nations) have started throwing around some serious coin. Atlanta, Sydney, Beijing, Vancouver (winter) = big cash for the home team, and big results.

A lot of the medal count is not necessarily from the marquee sports, but a reflection of what happens when you pour that kind of money into the mid-level sports that are more "amateur" (ie where athletes struggle to get by, attempting to compete full time).

In my opinion, the doping charges are a red-herring. It's no different in Spain than anywhere else, and every country has someone like Fuentes' wife who could have given the same quote.