Stiffening a wheelset

[SpannerBender]

Not quite a 'Which Wheelset' thread but some advice required.

I've just recently recieved a nice set of Van Nicholas Technologies (them of the Ti frames) 50mm carbon wheels. Very nice and a good price. This does leave me with my 'old' wheels which are Planet X 30mm alloy - 20 spoke front radial, 24 spoke rear 2 cross. Good in their own right and light. I'd like to make them a little stiffer for climbing - as stiff as possible. So:

Rear - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. I'm told the rim should be able to take it. Go for 3-cross (can I on 24 spoke hub?) Different or same lacing each side?

Front - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. Stay radial but go 'elbows out' as I'm told this will increase stiffnes by 10%.

Any thoughts? Which spokes?

Ta

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Not quite a 'Which Wheelset' thread but some advice required.

I've just recently recieved a nice set of Van Nicholas Technologies (them of the Ti frames) 50mm carbon wheels. Very nice and a good price. This does leave me with my 'old' wheels which are Planet X 30mm alloy - 20 spoke front radial, 24 spoke rear 2 cross. Good in their own right and light. I'd like to make them a little stiffer for climbing - as stiff as possible. So:

Rear - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. I'm told the rim should be able to take it. Go for 3-cross (can I on 24 spoke hub?) Different or same lacing each side?

Front - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. Stay radial but go 'elbows out' as I'm told this will increase stiffnes by 10%.

Any thoughts? Which spokes?

Ta

Which spokes do you have now? Double butted(14/15) and brass nipples will make it stiffer if you have thin section oval spokes now. Brass nipps won't make it stiffer, just better nipples. 2 cross rear as 3 cross will introduce a lot of spoke/flange overlap, covering adjacent spoke heads. 2 cross front as well. Elbows out won't increase stiffness by 10%. If you stay radial, fatter spokes.

 

[SpannerBender]

Appreciate that brass nipples won't in themselves make the wheel stiffer but may allow for higher tensions than alloy. Currently have flat section spokes - not sure of the brand.

Sapim CX-Ray and CX spokes: I know they are good spokes but are they good for increasing stiffness given a 30mm rim and brass nips?

 

[Milessio]

What symptoms are you getting of insuficient stiffness in your wheels?

(An engineer (Mike Burrows) once tested the stiffness of different wheels, applying x3 normal load & found deflections ranging from 0.35mm for a radial spoked race wheel to 0.5mm for an old 3 cross tourer).

If you tie & solder the spoke crossings that should satisfy your need to do something, and not cost much.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Appreciate that brass nipples won't in themselves make the wheel stiffer but may allow for higher tensions than alloy. Currently have flat section spokes - not sure of the brand.

Sapim CX-Ray and CX spokes: I know they are good spokes but are they good for increasing stiffness given a 30mm rim and brass nips?

CX are bladed and CX-Ray, essentially oval. Very expensive and I think if you want to make the wheel stiffer, use Sapim Race or DT Comps. Double butted 2mm/1.8mm/2mm spokes. The tye and solder idea is a good one as well, altho some will poop on it as an idea to make a wheel siffer(not me tho).

 

[quadsRme]

Not quite a 'Which Wheelset' thread but some advice required.

I've just recently recieved a nice set of Van Nicholas Technologies (them of the Ti frames) 50mm carbon wheels. Very nice and a good price. This does leave me with my 'old' wheels which are Planet X 30mm alloy - 20 spoke front radial, 24 spoke rear 2 cross. Good in their own right and light. I'd like to make them a little stiffer for climbing - as stiff as possible. So:

Rear - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. I'm told the rim should be able to take it. Go for 3-cross (can I on 24 spoke hub?) Different or same lacing each side?

Front - change to brass nipples and 'stiffer' spokes to get more tension. Stay radial but go 'elbows out' as I'm told this will increase stiffnes by 10%.

Any thoughts? Which spokes?

Ta

Hey Spanner--There is another poster login of rdv4roubaix
he builds wheels ,etc. you may want to PM him for some advice. He is really good with builds as I believe he does this for a living or a side job, not sure which it is. he also has great ideas and insights regarding hardware and compatibility. Let us know how it works out

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

If I were going to rebuild those wheels, It would go something like this:

Rear-2X drive side, radial non drive/elbows in. Sapim Race or DT Comp. Brass nips.

Front-1X or radial/elbows in. Sapim Laser or DT Rev. Brass nips.

I've been toying with 1X/elbows in front wheels for the last year and found them to be quite nice. But, yeah, radial would give a slightly shorter spoke, which would be fractionally stiffer, same with the elbows in or out 10% difference. I believe that 10% is rather subjective, but cosmetically I like the elbows in. Tie and solder would be ok on an all 2X rear, but not every shop knows how to do it, so make for certain your wheel builder knows what they're doing. 2X drive and radial non drive will give you a plenty stiff rear wheel without the extra work of T&Sing.

Good luck, have fun!

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I forgot to mention that depending on how "old" your wheelset is, you might want to consider replacing the rims too, as aluminum tends to get soft after so many years. And it also depends how beat up the nipple seats in the spoke holes are looking. Just a thought.

 

[biker77]

What do wheelbuilders mean by "elbows in"?

Thanks,
biker77

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

What do wheelbuilders mean by "elbows in"?

The head of a traditional spoke has a J bend to it, and the bend is called the elbow. So, when you lace a wheel radially the elbows in or out is referring to which way the bend is pointing, to the middle of the hub for elbows in, or outwards for elbows out. Speaking of elbows, I've got a hankering now for some macaroni.

 

[biker77]

If people object to me asking questions within their OP let me know and I will edit.

Thanks, RDV. I recently changed from kysrium elites to a pair of mavic cosmos wheels. I was very suprised by the difference in ride quality and even feel more stable in cross-winds. I could barely take my hands off the bars with the elites despite them being round and true. Any ideas?

With the cosmos, they were new, true and round when I got them. However the spoke tension was very uneven. I fixed this, but it has left the rear non-drive side spokes with low tension (~65 on the park scale for a 2mm) to get the wheel to be true. Should I be concerned? Related to the OP, the wheel doesn`t feel all that stiff on steep climbs, but is fine otherwise. It has also held true for 1500km so far.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

If people object to me asking questions within their OP let me know and I will edit.

Thanks, RDV. I recently changed from kysrium elites to a pair of mavic cosmos wheels. I was very surprised by the difference in ride quality and even feel more stable in cross-winds. I could barely take my hands off the bars with the elites despite them being round and true. Any ideas?

Those Cosmos have a tad bit lower profile rim, more like an Open Pro. And no bladed spokes. Not much of a difference cosmetically, but not surprised that you're able to cheat cross winds a little better.

With the cosmos, they were new, true and round when I got them. However the spoke tension was very uneven. I fixed this, but it has left the rear non-drive side spokes with low tension (~65 on the park scale for a 2mm) to get the wheel to be true. Should I be concerned? Related to the OP, the wheel doesn`t feel all that stiff on steep climbs, but is fine otherwise. It has also held true for 1500km so far.

You should be OK as long as your rear wheel isn't making any pinging noises from under tensioned spokes. Not sure what the Mavic specs are for the tension difference in the rear wheel, but as long as your wheels are true and round that's all that matters. You can only stiffen up a low profile wheel so much, as longer spokes will always give a more resilient ride rather than stiff.

 

[biker77]

The Mavic spec I found online was high, 130 Kgf. I could achieve this for the drive side. No pinging noises, so I am going to forget about my wheels (hopefully for at least 3000km).

I much prefer the look of traditional wheels, even over new carbon stuff. The ride is much nicer, but as the OP asked about, not quite as stiff.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The Mavic spec I found online was high, 130 Kgf. I could achieve this for the drive side. No pinging noises, so I am going to forget about my wheels (hopefully for at least 3000km).

I usually won't go below 120kgf, so it sounds like you got it right. Good on ya!

I much prefer the look of traditional wheels, even over new carbon stuff. The ride is much nicer, but as the OP asked about, not quite as stiff.

As do I. Hard to beat the ride of a 32h 3x wheelset. Most of the younger generation need to be schooled in the fact that 58mm deep carbon hoops aren't that great for an everyday training wheel. Though sometimes I will ride carbon for hard 2 hour efforts, anything 3 hours or more I'm on classics wheels, which is pretty much every day.

 

[justme]

Ok, so lets talk about wheels. There is some good information in this thread, but there is also some stuff that is wrong.

Fact 1. Elongation of spokes is a linear function. So once you have a suitable spoke tension adding tension does not add stiffness. A wheel with 100kgf will be no stiffer than one with 120kgf. Spoke tension does not matter until a spoke becomes slack. Higher tension can bear a higher load before becoming slack but it is not stiffer.

Fact 2. Tie and Soldering spokes does not increase stiffness of a wheel.

So what does have a bearing on wheel stiffness? Spoke gauge, flange spacing or bracing angle, stiffer or deeper rim and higher spoke count.

If you already have the hubs and rims then you can't change the flange spacing or get a stiffer rim or change spoke count. That doesn't leave you many options.

1. go to a thicker 14/15 gauge or even 14 straight gauge spoke. Keep your alloy nipples because you don't need higher tensions.

2. Increase your bracing angle. On the front this is easy, elbows out radial laced. On the rear it can be more difficult. Because you have to balance bracing angle with keeping spoke tension even.

On a rear wheel you have two good options, but they cannot be used simultaneously. The first is to use the heavier 14 gauge spoke and keep a basic 2x pattern. The 2nd is to use a flat blade spoke with a short but (I spelled but wrong because with tt the site censor takes it out). These can be used to lace the the drive side 1x with all spokes elbows out. This will increase your bracing angle by a couple mm. The trade is that typically this is done with an aerolite or cxray which is not as good at resisting elongation. You could use a heavy gauge aero spoke and slot the hub flange though.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I would have to agree with most of the above except for idea that tied and soldered wheels don't increase stiffness. Yes, Jobst Brandt wrote about it, and concluded that there is no change, but riding a tied a soldered wheel feels more solid despite what he came up with. I don't believe everything I read, especially from eccentric, angry, old engineer types like Jobst who think their word is the undisputed truth. Granted his book is the bible for wheel builders and a wealth of info, doesn't mean it's all correct. IMHO ride it, you might like it.

Personally, I don't build or ride tied and soldered wheels. The amount of work that is put into it doesn't really translate to any substantial difference to make it worthwhile. On the other hand, it seems QBP is selling tied and soldered wheels like hot cakes, so there is a demand for them.

 

[justme]

While Brandt has contributed much to this industry, it wasn't him that I based my opinion from. And I totally agree with you on the word as law attitude of some engineers.

Perception on a bike is no replacement for actually measuring something. However at the same time, no lab can replicate all the real world conditions that something is subjected to during cycling.

I do however believe Damon and Jobst when they say t&s does not make a wheel stiffer. Yet at the same time, I totally agree with you that they feel stiffer, and I can explain why. It's the same explanation one can use for a triplet lacing, which feels stiffer while is actually less stiff.

When we feel the wheel is stiffer we're not actually basing that on lateral flex, but rather it's ability to resist wind-up. In a traditional 24 spoke wheel, only 6 spokes are resisting our pedaling forces. When you t&s them you do transfer some of that load to the spokes that normally would not be working to resist wind-up. It's the same explanation for Triplet. By increasing the number of drive side spokes and decreasing the non-drive you actually decrease the wheels stiffness, yet everyone who rides one swears they feel stiffer. It's because while decreasing the lateral stiffness the extra spokes resist the wind-up. It's under accelerations that this resistance produces a wheel that feels stiffer. This is also why it seemed so at home on the track, where acceleration is king.

The reason that QBP sales of t&s wheels are up is likely due to the same crowd that has increased the sales of bandannas to tie on the top tubes of their fixies.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

The reason that QBP sales of t&s wheels are up is likely due to the same crowd that has increased the sales of bandannas to tie on the top tubes of their fixies.

LOL! That's right! Ha-ha!

 

[Bustedknuckle]

I would have to agree with most of the above except for idea that tied and soldered wheels don't increase stiffness. Yes, Jobst Brandt wrote about it, and concluded that there is no change, but riding a tied a soldered wheel feels more solid despite what he came up with. I don't believe everything I read, especially from eccentric, angry, old engineer types like Jobst who think their word is the undisputed truth. Granted his book is the bible for wheel builders and a wealth of info, doesn't mean it's all correct. IMHO ride it, you might like it.

Personally, I don't build or ride tied and soldered wheels. The amount of work that is put into it doesn't really translate to any substantial difference to make it worthwhile. On the other hand, it seems QBP is selling tied and soldered wheels like hot cakes, so there is a demand for them.

I do and not the primary reason(make the wheel stiffer) you tie and solder spokes. Not to prevent a spoke flapping around on the track either, since we are not on the track.

Class? Ferris, Bueller?

Who knows??