Structure vs Talent

[Guybrush]

Follow me on this

According to the nation structure (amateur/conti/pro-conti/pro teams, sponsors supporting the sport/riders, knowledge of the sport, facilities, etc) which one produce less talented riders?

And on the other hand, wich nation produce more without a good structure?







Sorry about the grammar

 

[martinvickers]

Follow me on this

According to the nation structure (amateur/conti/pro-conti/pro teams, sponsors supporting the sport/riders, knowledge of the sport, facilities, etc) which one produce less talented riders?

And on the other hand, wich nation produce more without a good structure?







Sorry about the grammar

France and Italy seem to punch below their weight recently, given the centrality of cycling to their culture.

Hard to ignore Colombia in terms of producing a steady stream of talent.

Problem is, it's hard to discuss this topic without at least skirting issues that may only be discussed in 'the other place'.

 

[Catwhoorg]

For many many years on the road Britain has for a variety of reasons, been well below where it would be expected.

Heck until what 1959ish mass start road races where actually banned in the UK.

Time trials existed, so UK riders became time trial specialists.


The velodrome of course is a different story.



With lottery funding, and support for youngsters on the way to being a fully fledged pro, the UK is actually probably punching above where its population suggests, and will do for the foreseeable future.

 

[martinvickers]

For many many years on the road Britain has for a variety of reasons, been well below where it would be expected.

Heck until what 1959ish mass start road races where actually banned in the UK.

Time trials existed, so UK riders became time trial specialists.


The velodrome of course is a different story.



With lottery funding, and support for youngsters on the way to being a fully fledged pro, the UK is actually probably punching above where its population suggests, and will do for the foreseeable future.

Hard to overstate importance of this. There simply was no 'road race' culture. the culture was TT, expecially the classic 10 mile TT - which of course could easily connect to GB's relatively strong history in Individual pursuit. Compare Ireland's long history of roadies, and 'sh!te' history of trackies, from a much tinier population.

Indeed, the strong element of NIMBY-ism mean's that Road Race culture is still far from entrenched in Britain. For every fan delighted at the recent upsurge in GB road racing (including RideLondon, this yorkshire thing and the upgraded ToB) there's probalby about 10 commuters and shire dwellers cursing the cyclists out for 'taking over our roads'. There's a war out there!

 

[SafeBet]

France and Italy seem to punch below their weight recently, given the centrality of cycling to their culture.

Sponsors are fading and facilities (if we're talking about track cycling) are nonexistent.

 

[martinvickers]

Sponsors are fading and facilities (if we're talking about track cycling) are nonexistent.

Very sad, really.

Is Fasso Bartoli as out of the way as it looks? i know they'd the world juniors there a while back...

 

[Guybrush]

Comes to mind USA, with lots of teams at diferent levels and just a few succesfull riders.

On the other side (in relative terms) Estonia, Poland, Belarus or Luxembourg are pretty good developing riders in "poor" conditions .

 

[Catwhoorg]

Hard to overstate importance of this. There simply was no 'road race' culture. the culture was TT, expecially the classic 10 mile TT - which of course could easily connect to GB's relatively strong history in Individual pursuit. Compare Ireland's long history of roadies, and 'sh!te' history of trackies, from a much tinier population.

Indeed, the strong element of NIMBY-ism mean's that Road Race culture is still far from entrenched in Britain. For every fan delighted at the recent upsurge in GB road racing (including RideLondon, this yorkshire thing and the upgraded ToB) there's probalby about 10 commuters and shire dwellers cursing the cyclists out for 'taking over our roads'. There's a war out there!

Yep. The BBC comments section on the Surrey Classic last year was full of complaints about "yet another road closure".


There are noticeably more cyclists out there though. Very visible on my trip to visit my parents last year. The Cycle network, the increase in rail/trails, and even on the roads in the Pennines and in the Lakes. There is movement, but a culture shift takes a long time.

(and almost all were wearing helmets, which is a great thing)

 

[Catwhoorg]

Obviously France feel they are underperforming, hence their plan to work towards a proteam that integrates the track guys - I think they even used the phrase 'the Sky Model' when talking about it.

 

[simoni]

The olympics effect followed by the wiggo effect have made an enormous difference in UK. Sportives, stuff like mountainbike orienteering, cyclo cross etc. are all increasing in popularity. I nearly fell off my chair the other year when the lead article on the BBC sport site was, briefly, "Should GB pick Hoy or Kenny for sprint spot?"!

The organiser of the tour of britain has been talking about how local authorities want the race now - preiovusly it was seen as a problem because of road closures. Not right the way there yet though - a significant undercurrent of "I own the road, I pay my taxes" still exists and, Britain being Britain, will continue to do so.

Being so close to mainland Europe and with Wiggins, Cavendish etc. showing that you can live in Britain (some of the time) whilst racing in Europe and youngsters like the Yates twins, Fenn etc. beginning to make their mark, things can obviosuly improve in general. The worry is that we're coming to the end of a golden generation of talent and once the big guns retire there may not be someone as exceptional to take their place and the public will lose interest.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

Beglium gotta be the best country in cycling for it's size, though

It's mostly got to do with how incredibly popular cycling is in Belgium, I guess. They do a good job of developing talents for the classics, but they seem to have less succes with developing stage racers.

Also, forget about Colombia for climbing talents. Eritrea is totally the new Colombia. Everybody will agree with me in 10 years.

 

[martinvickers]

Yep. The BBC comments section on the Surrey Classic last year was full of complaints about "yet another road closure".


There are noticeably more cyclists out there though. Very visible on my trip to visit my parents last year. The Cycle network, the increase in rail/trails, and even on the roads in the Pennines and in the Lakes. There is movement, but a culture shift takes a long time.

(and almost all were wearing helmets, which is a great thing)

It's that 'thing'...Road race cycling in GB is not even close to as imbedded in the culture as in the Northern lowlands, or the GT countries.

But, at the same time, the pace of improvement that is happeneing is extraordimary - kinda, long way to go, but they are doing the 'going' at some lick...

Plus, because it's SO recent, the general population just see helmets as much part of cycling as pads are part of ice hockey, or helmets part of gridiron - they don't really remember any different unless they have memories of Robert Millar's hair .

 

[martinvickers]

Obviously France feel they are underperforming, hence their plan to work towards a proteam that integrates the track guys - I think they even used the phrase 'the Sky Model' when talking about it.

Oh, it's a carbon copy from the looks of it - and to some extent good on them, why just take your beating, get out there and fight back!! They already have world class sprinters,a nd I know Riblon of all people has made noises about how he'd love to win a track world title.

'Course, I'm biased because I'm a huge fan of Irvine, but I do like a bit of track; it has it's own charm. I know there's a rising interest in trying to get an 'Éire-odrome' up and running - there's a couple of very good endurance trackies coming through for ireland and they deserve the support - Martyn has frankly worked miracles without a home track (I think he works a bit with the US team, and they pool resources)

 

[martinvickers]

The olympics effect followed by the wiggo effect have made an enormous difference in UK. Sportives, stuff like mountainbike orienteering, cyclo cross etc. are all increasing in popularity. I nearly fell off my chair the other year when the lead article on the BBC sport site was, briefly, "Should GB pick Hoy or Kenny for sprint spot?"!

The organiser of the tour of britain has been talking about how local authorities want the race now - preiovusly it was seen as a problem because of road closures. Not right the way there yet though - a significant undercurrent of "I own the road, I pay my taxes" still exists and, Britain being Britain, will continue to do so.

Being so close to mainland Europe and with Wiggins, Cavendish etc. showing that you can live in Britain (some of the time) whilst racing in Europe and youngsters like the Yates twins, Fenn etc. beginning to make their mark, things can obviosuly improve in general. The worry is that we're coming to the end of a golden generation of talent and once the big guns retire there may not be someone as exceptional to take their place and the public will lose interest.

Panic ye not!!

Froome (baring disaster) is good for a few years yet - Kennaugh, Stannard, Yates boys are all young, and Tao Geoghegan Hart is, reportedly, a hell of a prospect.

These things always peak and trough - we're on a rather nice upswing at the moment with Nico Roche, Dan Martin, Phil Deignan and then Sam Bennett coming through very nicely, and a few decent others. On track we have Ryan, Martyn and a couple of good youngsters.

Plus, just as important, there is talk of interest in running new races both here and in britain.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Comes to mind USA, with lots of teams at diferent levels and just a few succesfull riders.

On the other side (in relative terms) Estonia, Poland, Belarus or Luxembourg are pretty good developing riders in "poor" conditions .

But, the vast majority of riders on U.S. teams are being paid next to nothing. Not kidding. They'd make more as a bike shop hire and bike shops are a lousy business.

The American system is not actually performance-based as many riders will tell you. It's a combination of pay-to-play and whether or not people from the USACDF you might meet maybe once like you or not. As a result, sometimes in the U.S. a bigger-budget international team will hire riders based on results that the U.S. federation plainly ignores.

Watch those Belorussians. They have uhhh "integrity issues" in Europe's last dictatorship.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Norway punch above their weight, more because of a handful of big names than because of anything more than that, though their calendar is developing. All of the Baltic Chain produce more talented riders than their cycling background would let on. Kazakhstan of course have plunged a lot of money into the sport, but it was only last year that we got a UCI-rated race in the country, and that was an out-and-back flat drag on a highway through Almaty. Belarus also punches above its weight. I don't know much about the structural side of things there and unfortunately airstream got banned before he could tell us, but they have barely a hill in the country and yet guys like Siutsou, Kiryienka, Amialyusik and Samoilau are at least fairly adept at getting over the big passes. Hutarovich is more what you might expect from a Belarusian but nevertheless, where are the Belarusian races? Do they all come from a handful of Russian .2 events and the Ukrainian and Polish calendars?

The Polish calendar is stronger than you think, mind. Quite a few interesting .1 and .2 races there. It's just that it's very self-contained out there, a bit like Portugal.

 

[EvansIsTheBest]

Oh, it's a carbon copy from the looks of it - and to some extent good on them, why just take your beating, get out there and fight back!! They already have world class sprinters,a nd I know Riblon of all people has made noises about how he'd love to win a track world title.

Riblon already has a couple of runner-up finishes at the Track WCs. In fact he was a good track rider before he became a good road racer. So that's why he made that statement. I doubt there are that many french road specialists who are interested in doing track racing.

 

[Peccio89]

Problem in Italy is that while foreign federations try to develop talented youngster slowly, italians are pushed from small local sponsor to overtrain at a very young age in order to win ****ty local races.
This wasn't a problem in the past because the world of cycling was much smaller than now and the competition much thinner.

This and the fact that nowadays children that want to race are very few, while it seems that every man above 40, at least in the center-north, trains for Granfondo racing