Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Oldermanish]

So he basically jump on Vingegaard's wheel to make him work, and then dropped to Uran/Carapaz to make them work too, if I understood correctly. Although they would do that same amount of work even without his presence. How smart indeed
And he even gave Vingegaard a false sense of being stronger, brilliant!

Not what I suggested at all. He followed Vingegaard and would assume the other two would as well. He checked that they weren't following and gauged his effort, not wanting to commit needlessly and fall back to the strategy others mention above: stick with Carapaz and Uran, his chief GC threats. That he would sprint for 25m at the end for a time bonus isn't any show of pointless strength. We are hyper-analyzing everything these guys do and, if you've been in a race like this you'd realize that they make probably 5 adjustments per minute in effort, tactics and awareness. Do you think Vingegaard believes he can now attack and drop Tadej at any time? Who else feels that way? We'll see what the DS's tell their riders but if there was a slight opportunity; it was very small and now it is long gone.
Tadej at least has the ally he had in the past in JVM as they will be keen to preserve Vingegaard's podium. UAE can now let them chase, too. We'll see what the next move is and it will be.

If anyone wins the ego display award it was Alaphilippe. Attacking Quintana to deny him a single climbing point was purely for the cameras. His showboat pulls in the breakaway worked entirely in WvA favor and he ended up getting passed by everyone.

 

[BlueRoads]

Not what I suggested at all. He followed Vingegaard and would assume the other two would as well. He checked that they weren't following and gauged his effort, not wanting to commit needlessly and fall back to the strategy others mention above: stick with Carapaz and Uran, his chief GC threats. That he would sprint for 25m at the end for a time bonus isn't any show of pointless strength. We are hyper-analyzing everything these guys do and, if you've been in a race like this you'd realize that they make probably 5 adjustments per minute in effort, tactics and awareness. Do you think Vingegaard believes he can now attack and drop Tadej at any time? Who else feels that way? We'll see what the DS's tell their riders but if there was a slight opportunity; it was very small and now it is long gone.
Tadej at least has the ally he had in the past in JVM as they will be keen to preserve Vingegaard's podium. UAE can now let them chase, too. We'll see what the next move is and it will be.

If anyone wins the ego display award it was Alaphilippe. Attacking Quintana to deny him a single climbing point was purely for the cameras. His showboat pulls in the breakaway worked entirely in WvA favor and he ended up getting passed by everyone.

Agree with the Pogacar part of your post. Disagree with the Alaphilippe part.

 

[BigCoward]

Since he is definitely going to the vuelta I'd say that the route and varying degrees of rest makes Pog, Rog (if he goes) and Bernal equal favourites. Be nice if they can all finish the race with no crashes so we can see what's what. I assume Padun and Landa will go insane. Should be good.

 

[Red Rick]

Since he is definitely going to the vuelta I'd say that the route and varying degrees of rest makes Pog, Rog (if he goes) and Bernal equal favourites. Be nice if they can all finish the race with no crashes so we can see what's what. I assume Padun and Landa will go insane. Should be good.

If Roglic shows up in great shape I see now way in which Bernal is an equal favorite with Roglic.

 

[Big Doopie]

Heat appears to be his kryptonite.

If it’s reeeeeeally hot in the Pyrenees, I may have to re-evaluate my #fignon84 analogy and run away from the forum, humiliated.

 

[Leinster]

If Roglic shows up in great shape I see now way in which Bernal is an equal favorite with Roglic.

Bernal on Giro form, with a strong Ineos team around him, and with "only" 41km of ITT on the route, with more rest since his GT win than Roglic since his GT DNF, but simultaneously with more race-day sharpness than Roglic since Liege...

I'm not saying Bernal is a clear favourite or anything, but there's a strong case to be made for him, and right now there are more questions over Roglic's form/injuries.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Pogacar has changed his tune a bit since he got dropped on the Ventoux.

His main objective is still to defend the jersey, but all of sudden he wants to put time in the other contenders again, if the opportunity presents itself (if the article I read was properly translated)

I guess Vingegaard's attack must have really pissed him off. He wants to put him in his place, IMO.

 

[JosefK]

Don't worry, fans. Pogacar is not yet finished asserting his dominance as of week 2 in the 2021 TDF. Expect another berserker mountain stage attack to pad his lead over Rigo/Jonas/Richard.

 

[Leinster]

Pogacar has changed his tune a bit since he got dropped on the Ventoux.

His main objective is still to defend the jersey, but all of sudden he wants to put time in the other contenders again, if the opportunity presents itself (if the article I read was properly translated)

I guess Vingegaard's attack must have really pissed him off. He wants to put him in his place, IMO.

If opportunities come up in the early Pyrenees stages to put more time into his rivals, he'd be a fool not to take them. 5 minutes to 2nd place looks like a comfortable margin now, but it only takes 1 bad day to lose all that.

 

[Blanco]

Pogacar has changed his tune a bit since he got dropped on the Ventoux.

His main objective is still to defend the jersey, but all of sudden he wants to put time in the other contenders again, if the opportunity presents itself (if the article I read was properly translated)

I guess Vingegaard's attack must have really pissed him off. He wants to put him in his place, IMO.

It's just the talk, he'll ride defensively and won't attack first. Of course if the opportunity arise he'll take it.

 

[Cookster15]

I'm just as interested to see how Vingegaard goes in the remaining mountains. At this stage I don't think Pogi cracked and frankly I hope he puts Vingegaard and the rest back in their place on stage 17.

 

[Big Doopie]

…and with "only" 41km of ITT on the route…

Precisely. And how is that a test of all around talent?

if you asked yourself if you would accept a rider who consistently finished around 40th in all mountain stages as a GT winner, how can you even consider Bernal as a legitimate all-rounder? Bernal regularly finishes in around there in TTs in a field where the majority of riders are taking the day off.

Who is the best all-rounder? Pog is MILES above Bernal in terms of that. Until that changes, I would want Pog to win every time. And if they ever returned to a normal amount of KMs in the TTs, it would be a crushing victory and Bernal would have to go for the climber’s jersey, as riders of his type always did in the past.

 

[Leinster]

Precisely. And how is that a test of all around talent?

if you asked yourself if you would accept a rider who consistently finished around 40th in all mountain stages as a GT winner, how can you even consider Bernal as a legitimate all-rounder? Bernal regularly finishes in around there in TTs in a field where the majority of riders are taking the day off.

Who is the best all-rounder? Pog is MILES above Bernal in terms of that. Until that changes, I would want Pog to win every time. And if they ever returned to a normal amount of KMs in the TTs, it would be a crushing victory and Bernal would have to go for the climber’s jersey, as riders of his type always did in the past.

None of this is relevant to the point I was making about Bernal being on a relatively equal footing to Roglic in terms of chances for the 2021 Vuelta.

But if you do want to have the discussion you appear to want to have, I'll point out that Bernal has 20 ITT results on his PCS page. Of those, 10 are in the top 20 and only 4 are outside the top 40. (his results at GTs; 22, 25, 26, 40, the 40 being an 8km stage 1 of the Giro this year) He knows his way around a TT bike. Yes, Pogacar and Roglic are better than him in the TT, but Bernal is no slouch. If Bernal takes more time out of the others on the climbs than they get out of him in the TTs, then he's the better all-rounder.

I should add that I don't think it's in any way a given that Bernal can take any time out of Pogacar or Roglic in the mountains. Those Slovenians are pretty good uphill.

 

[ppanther92]

I don't really think that record is achievable because breakaways are prevelent on mountain stages these days and he will face strong rivals in the next years however the most important Merckx record of winning 5 Tours looks achievable but even that one will be hard.

He can equalize it with 25 theoretically though. Which is just crazy...

 

[Big Doopie]

None of this is relevant to the point I was making about Bernal being on a relatively equal footing to Roglic in terms of chances for the 2021 Vuelta.

But if you do want to have the discussion you appear to want to have, I'll point out that Bernal has 20 ITT results on his PCS page. Of those, 10 are in the top 20 and only 4 are outside the top 40. (his results at GTs; 22, 25, 26, 40, the 40 being an 8km stage 1 of the Giro this year) He knows his way around a TT bike. Yes, Pogacar and Roglic are better than him in the TT, but Bernal is no slouch. If Bernal takes more time out of the others on the climbs than they get out of him in the TTs, then he's the better all-rounder.

I should add that I don't think it's in any way a given that Bernal can take any time out of Pogacar or Roglic in the mountains. Those Slovenians are pretty good uphill.

so you would accept a rider winning a GT who could TT with the best but regularly finished outside the top 20 in every mountain stage?

 

[Leinster]

so you would accept a rider winning a GT who could TT with the best but regularly finished outside the top 20 in every mountain stage?

If he could manage it with time gaps, I don't see why not.

Incidentally, Bernal's biggest career time loss in a ITT; 1.53 behind his teammate Ganna, in the final stage of this year's Giro, when his only job was to stay upright and not cough up 2 minutes to Caruso.

 

[Big Doopie]

If he could manage it with time gaps, I don't see why not.

Incidentally, Bernal's biggest career time loss in a ITT; 1.53 behind his teammate Ganna, in the final stage of this year's Giro, when his only job was to stay upright and not cough up 2 minutes to Caruso.

i think you may be missing my point.

bernal never really has to be good at TT (or one of the best) precisely because there are so few kms of TT. what if there had been a second week TT at the Giro in which he lost 2 minutes... then what he did in the last TT would have mattered. but he doesn't even have to improve at TT because it is hardly tested. The "race of truth" is no longer being used as a barometer of all-around strength in GTs.

and, believe you me, let's say that the KMs of ITT were as outbalanced in the other direction -- let's say 300 KMs of TT and just two mountain stages. Now Stephan Kung takes 14 minutes out of bernal in those TTs and then finishes 32nd on one mountain stage six minutes behind bernal (who wins!) and then 29th the other mountain stage, losing a full 7 and a half minutes to bernal (who wins again). Kung would then be ahead of bernal in GC...

and you would be okay with that...?

somehow i doubt that.

and i doubt any cycling fan would like it.

i wouldn't.

that is a little what is happening, but the other way round.

that is why i am happy when a rider like pog can dominate a race, excelling in both areas. I don't have any doubts that the best all-around rider is winning. however, when the route so favors one type of rider, i question whether the best all-around rider is actually winning -- at that seems a shame.

 

[Leinster]

i think you may be missing my point.

bernal never really has to be good at TT (or one of the best) precisely because there are so few kms of TT. what if there had been a second week TT at the Giro in which he lost 2 minutes... then what he did in the last TT would have mattered. but he doesn't even have to improve at TT because it is hardly tested. The "race of truth" is no longer being used as a barometer of all-around strength in GTs.

and, believe you me, let's say that the KMs of ITT were as outbalanced in the other direction -- let's say 300 KMs of TT and just two mountain stages. Now Stephan Kung takes 14 minutes out of bernal in those TTs and then finishes 32nd on one mountain stage six minutes behind bernal (who wins!) and then 29th the other mountain stage, losing a full 7 and a half minutes to bernal (who wins again). Kung would then be ahead of bernal in GC...

and you would be okay with that...?

somehow i doubt that.

and i doubt any cycling fan would like it.

i wouldn't.

that is a little what is happening, but the other way round.

that is why i am happy when a rider like pog can dominate a race, excelling in both areas. I don't have any doubts that the best all-around rider is winning. however, when the route so favors one type of rider, i question whether the best all-around rider is actually winning -- at that seems a shame.

I’m sorry, who do you think you’re arguing with and what are you arguing about when you keep quoting me?

All I’ve said is that Egan Bernal is pretty ok at TT. And he won’t lose much time to Roglic or Pogacar in the relatively short TT in the Vuelta this year.

 

[Blobs]

so you would accept a rider winning a GT who could TT with the best but regularly finished outside the top 20 in every mountain stage?

What choice do you have? If someone is able to pull that off, you just have to accept it. You can't just reject a winner.

 

[Froome]

I’m sorry, who do you think you’re arguing with and what are you arguing about when you keep quoting me?

All I’ve said is that Egan Bernal is pretty ok at TT. And he won’t lose much time to Roglic or Pogacar in the relatively short TT in the Vuelta this year.

Probably will lose 1min/1min and 30 seconds on itt.
But talking about the mountains, i think pogacar is also better than bernal, specially the mountains with less than 2000 m. So very difficult to Bernal beat a pogacar at 100%.

 

[Leinster]

Probably will lose 1min/1min and 30 seconds on itt.
But talking about the mountains, i think pogacar is also better than bernal, specially the mountains with less than 2000 m. So very difficult to Bernal beat a pogacar at 100%.

Yeah, I think under 2’ loss to Rog/Pog would be a good result for Bernal.

We haven’t seen 100% Pogi vs 100% Bernal yet. The only GT they both started, Bernal DNF’d. I’m interested to see how they go against each other, I don’t think it’ll be one way traffic.

 

[Red Rick]

If opportunities come up in the early Pyrenees stages to put more time into his rivals, he'd be a fool not to take them. 5 minutes to 2nd place looks like a comfortable margin now, but it only takes 1 bad day to lose all that.

I'm fairly sure a leader at this stage in the race has cracked and lost 5 minutes only once like that in the third week.

Simon Yates lost 40 minutes that day IIRC.

Pogacar better get attacking

 

[Netserk]

I'm fairly sure a leader at this stage in the race has cracked and lost 5 minutes only once like that in the third week.

Simon Yates lost 40 minutes that day IIRC.

Pogacar better get attacking

Landis.

 

[Red Rick]

Landis.

15 years ago already. Sad.

But remember when the dominating narrative about Yates was that he was too aggressive/took pink too early/wasted too much energy?

 

[Netserk]

15 years ago already. Sad.

But remember when the dominating narrative about Yates was that he was too aggressive/took pink too early/wasted too much energy?

I think it all adds up, but it was more down to how he came in to the Giro than what he did there.